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There seems to be a little misunderstanding here. If you have a travelcard then it is valid to use National Rail as well as the Underground within the zones covered. Charlton is in zone 3 so you’d need a zone 1-3 travelcard.
Alternatively, if you are using PAYG then the whole journey will be charged as one from Charlton to your zone 2 destination as long as you don’t take longer than 20 minutes between touching out at London Bridge NR and touching back in at London Bridge LU.
Something similar has been happening to me if I travel between zones 1-8 in the peak. I expect the cap to be £17 but it’s £16.30 using contactless.
Contactless often does this. It’ll be great when Oyster works the same way.
Thanks for the update, David. Good to know the out and back journey worked.
And yes, going back to Finsbury Park before continuing to Moorgate would have worked correctly. I agree it’s a pain to have to work around the quirks, although as I’ve said earlier, Finsbury Park has special problems going back to FCC days, and the botch job is potentially as much to do with government franchise commitments not taking account of the bigger picture at the station.
Because you’re using contactless the back office has converted that to a zone 1-2 cap at £7.20 and a zone 3-4 peak extension fare at £1.70. If that’s the way you regularly travel then I’d continue using contactless.03/12/2020 at 13:04 in reply to: TfL Funding Package 1/11/2020 (kids free bus fares safe) #274
I could certainly support the idea of a reduced charge at weekends.
One of the big problems I have with vehicle recognition schemes generally (the Dartford Crossing is the same) is that there doesn’t seem to be a way of telling whether you’ve avoided paying if you entered/exited the zone at about the charge boundary times. For this reason I’m not sure how successful splitting the fee on a weekday might be. I do get the data protection issues, but once logged in to your own account I think they should allow you to see times that your vehicle plates were captured.
Some interesting thoughts. I’ve unearthed this article where the idea was floated six years ago. Personally I don’t think it’s a starter, but who knows.
Not touching in at 7/8 is complicated as there are usual staff there and I’ll probably be rushing a bit to catch a train and not want to go through this history with them when they ask why I didn’t touch in
You should be able to touch in again, so no need to explain the story.
Thanks for that. I’ve now worked it all out.
Firstly, the £3.75 is the railcard discounted off-peak incomplete journey which was charged because you touched out at 0930. Before 0927 it would be the full adult incomplete journey.
Now, the main problem is actually not down to the EOSI, but instead it’s the continuation exit marker on the validators in the subway. As I mentioned, the validators are part of the Underground station, which doesn’t matter normally, but does cause an issue in this case. Continuation exit works within the maximum journey time from the origin station. Weekdays, that is 100 minutes for a zone 5 to zone 2 journey. So, your touch in at platforms 7/8 is 90 minutes after the touch in at New Barnet and platforms 7/8 are part of the National Rail station so the system treats your journey as continuing. By the time you get back to New Barnet you’ve long exceeded the 30 minutes allowed for a here-to-here journey so it charges an incomplete journey instead.
So, to stop this happening you need to first touch in on the validators by platforms 1/2. As this is the same station as you exited the continuation exit marker will expire after 15 minutes, but with the EOSI you need to leave 30 minutes. You can still touch in on the gates to platforms 7/8 if you need to because the continuation entry setting will allow that.
I’m going to pass this over to my contact at TfL to see if anything else can be done, but in the meantime I’d be grateful to know whether touching the validator first does cure the problem.
OK, Finsbury Park is a particular problem at the moment thanks to the coronavirus one-way system and the special setting on the gates to platforms 7/8.
The station has what’s known as an EOSI set which means that an attempt to touch in within 45 minutes of a touch out will result in the two journeys being combined. This is needed because the validators at the exit from platforms 1/2 are actually part of the Underground station even though most people using them are Great Northern passengers. The journey needs to be joined so that when people change to the Underground (after walking round to the other entrance) they are not overcharged. Unfortunately it does cause a problem if the return journey starts in under 30 minutes after arrival.
Now, in normal times it is possible to get from the Underground to National Rail without touching out. To avoid problems the gates to platforms 7/8 are set to continuation entry which means that if you are already in the system you will be allowed through. This touch is recorded as a pink reader because it is a single intermediate touch. All this came about because of the lack of coordination between TfL and First Capital Connect. It will only be resolved when gates are installed at the bus station entrance to the National Rail station so that the whole station is gated.
So, when you were charged an incomplete journey it was because you tried to touch in too early for the EOSI and you ended up with a circular here-to-here journey from your Great Northern station. I don’t know why you were undercharged on the most recent journey, but I’d keep the pennies as compensation for the inconvenience with other journeys. If you can copy the expanded journey history here then I’d be interested to see what happened.
Finally, First Capital Connect no longer exist. The National Rail station is run by Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR).
- This reply was modified 3 months ago by Mike (admin). Reason: Correct EOSI time from 45 mins to 30 mins
Thanks for raising this again. It’ll be useful to get other such issues with Elephant & Castle NR together in one place.
One thing I am certain is that pink readers will never be sited in zone 1. A pink reader is designed to offer a cheaper fare and thus there is no compulsion to touch one. If you don’t and are overcharged then you won’t get a refund. Whilst I realise that a pink reader at Blackfriars would give you a cheaper fare at times, most people would be charged more. If TfL/SE/DfT decide that different fares are required then the via zone 1 option will become the default.
I for one will be very pleased if they ever put pink readers at Peckham Rye. I’ve a longstanding irritation that Sidcup and Woolwich line stations to places like Norwood Junction default to via zone 1 but Bexleyheath line stations default to avoiding zone 1 because of the direct Victoria services. Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill have always been mentioned on my route validators page as missing.
As long as you make the journey 18 times in a month then a monthly ticket would be worthwhile. It costs £363.30 compared to £21 for peak singles each day. However, there is a cheaper way.
Contra peak travel between Euston and Watford Junction is charged at off-peak rates as long as the journey is only on that line. To achieve that you need to break the interchange at Euston. There are three ways to do that: leave the Underground at Kings Cross St Pancras and walk to Euston (takes about 15 minutes); touch in on a bus (and get straight off) between leaving the Underground at Euston and touching in at Euston NR; or wait 40 minutes between touch out and back in again (20 when going NR-LU). If you can do one of those then you can get a zone 1-2 travelcard for £138.70 and your PAYG balance will be charged £1.80 for each single extension from zone 3 to Watford Junction. If you travel on 20 days in a month the extensions will cost £72.00 making the total cost £210.70 for the month.
If you don’t break the journey then the peak extension fare is £4.10 which is still a saving (£302.70 for a 20 day month). Touching in on a bus won’t cost anything with a travelcard and drivers are used to people getting on and off again.21/11/2020 at 23:22 in reply to: Why can’t railcard holders resolve incomplete journeys online? #246
I’m not sure it’s just railcard holders. I’m sure I’ve had to contact them about contactless issues as well. I don’t know the criteria though. One to ask next year maybe.
Sadly TfL removed the concept of the off-peak cap some time ago, so your daily cap is unaffected by the Railcard (but your actual off-peak fares are cheaper).
This is not quite right. The off-peak cap still exists and railcard holders do get a discounted version. For adults it is set at the same level as the anytime cap so it appears not to exist.
My comment about the direct trains was more that at Monument you are only expected to want the Circle/District line trains and you could pick the Circle line up from Liverpool Street. With Bank you have the Northern line, as well as the DLR and Waterloo and City (when it reopens).
Bank/Monument is a bit of an anomaly given that it really is just one station. I can’t see either being renamed as the historical importance of the associated buildings is just too great. I’m also told that there is a limit as to the number of interchanges that can be catered for in the system, and adding every Bank OSI to Monument as well might be too much.
Looking at the map I’d say that the extra distance is the reason why there is no OSI. Plus there are Circle line trains between the two stations as well.
There are two discounts for students. The 18+ Student Oyster allows you to purchase travelcards with a 30% discount. This is only really useful if you travel 4 or more days in a week. Single fares and caps are the same as a normal adult Oyster card.
You can also get a 16-25 National Railcard and have the discount added to either a blue adult Oyster or an 18+ Student Oyster. This gives you a third off the adult off-peak single fares and the off-peak cap.