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I went to Waterloo earlier. Is the Colonnade the entrance in Waterloo Road to the left of the link bridge between Waterloo and Waterloo East? If it is then the sign for Waterloo and City line is above a staircase leading to a walkway along the hall with the gateline in it. You don’t actually go through the gateline. Follow it through and you do indeed come to the validators for the Waterloo and City line.
As for the issue of dealing with missing taps they have done quite a bit, but it still leaves a lot to be desired. The whole layout is not conducive to passenger understanding (eg exit from NR gates after you’ve gone down stairs from each pair of platforms so people think they’re going in to the LU station). There are huge posters by many of the validators reminding people to touch in and out when using the Waterloo and City line.
Re the FOI response. Edvid has articulated one of my thoughts quite well. The other thing is that they are quite right when they say that no fares were changed. All that changed was the caps and how they are implemented. Given that the change also affected caps to Radlett, Potters Bar, Hertford North and Gatwick Airport, it’s quite likely that the terminology in correspondence didn’t necessarily mention stations by name. The business case is simply to ensure that customers pay the fares they were intended to pay now that TfL’s systems can cope.
Those zonal system of other countries also follow the London rule of “each zone being charged only once as well” for a much larger area.
Those countries are prepared to fund public transport to different levels compared to the UK. It’s a political choice.
Also, why hasn’t daily and weekly capping introduced to journeys where both ends are outside Zone 1-9, like Gatwick to Redhill, or Maidenhead to Reading and along Thames branches?
It has, but it involves a cap including one outboundary station and extension fares for the other outboundary station. Which is which might depend on how many times each extension is used. You certainly can’t put a cap figure on the whole journey and expect it to hold for unlimited trips from end to end.
I’m not aware of enough people doing it anywhere in London to cause a problem. I’ve certainly done it myself. I’d secretly like to see it cause a problem at somewhere like East Croydon so that management are forced to consider sorting out some of the anomalies.
Yes, I remember when the rebuilt London Bridge opened I queried what the same station OSI meant and was told between Upper and Lower Concourses. I’m pretty sure that I tried it as well and it did work.
Hi Dave,
I’m not quite sure what you did there. It looks like you touched in at the Colonnade, out at another gateline and then out at Bank. I’m struggling to picture the walk involved for that. Nevertheless, Waterloo is a complete nightmare with that ungated entrance to the Waterloo and City. You might find they do adjust it after the event, but otherwise the helpdesk will sort it out. They may even be able to refund to a bank if it isn’t in a queue to be picked up.
Why is there a need of so many different prices? Other countries can fit an area of a hundred kilometre radius into about a dozen of fare zones or even less! 40 years ago work was done to fit London into 5 (eventually 6) fare zones, why can’t the process be repeated now to the wider commuter area?!
Complexity, basically. Within the zonal (1-6) area fares are relatively cheap so the outcome of rationalising them into standard fares was relatively painless, even though I’m sure there were some losers. If you were to allocate the entire Project Oval area to the next 6 zones there would have to be lots of losers to keep the whole change revenue neutral. The other issue is that there is no desire to expand the zonal system further than zone 9. By that I mean that West Drayton to Upminster is charged as a 6 zone fare the same as West Drayton to Paddington or Fenchurch Street to Upminster. Imagine the revenue loss if Reading to Shoeburyness was also charged the same as Reading to Paddington. It’s not going to happen.
I’ll go through the FOI response later…
It’s primarily so that people arriving at the front of trains into platforms 10-15 can exit through the upper gateline and use the escalator down to the lower concourse (unpaid side).
Hi Jon,
Pricing to Victoria line stations is completely screwed up. Harlow to Seven Sisters is £8.10 off-peak, to Tottenham Hale is the same regardless of whether you go direct or via Seven Sisters, Blackhorse Road is £13.90 while Walthamstow Central is £8.70. It looks like the wrong tube addon is being used in some cases, assuming that you will go via zone 1 rather than direct. It’s probably one to raise with Greater Anglia as they set the fares.
Also, the cap is likely a zone 1-2 or zone 1-3 cap plus relevant extension fares.
Hi,
Yes, it only works between two different gatelines, specifically any main concourse gateline and any upper concourse gateline from platforms 10-15. My OSI page explains that.
Is it possible for you to post your full journey history and full payment history for the day(s) in question? Obviously black out any identifying information. I’m trying to get people to look into these issues, but it appears that they are one-offs so the team need specific information to investigate.
Good afternoon, Phil,
I’ll try again to get a response from TfL. You weren’t the only one having issues – there’s another thread in here and my wife also had a very delayed payment which was pending on the credit card from Thursday to Monday. I think it’s safe to say that something went wrong that week.
On the plus side, that’s £7 you had free with the first bus on Thursday as well.
Hi Michael,
That does seem to be a bit of an omission. I’d agree that if Waddon allows travel via Clapham Junction then so should West Croydon which you will always be calling at first on the train you use. Contact TfL and ask them the reason.
Hi Fellow Human,
Unfortunately this is one of those journeys which is only defined via zone 1. Thus you will be charged the full fare even if you do touch the pink reader at Stratford.
Well, this is getting a little concerning. In addition to you, a member of another site that I belong to has reported issues with payments being blocked, cards being stopped and potential double charges. And now it appears that my wife has a pending transaction from Thursday that hasn’t yet been finalised. I’m making enquiries.
Hi Stephen,
You will have been charged a zone 1-2 cap and two extension fares between Slough and zone 3. Unfortunately neither TfL nor the train companies will publish what these extension fares are, so it’s all a bit of guesswork. The uncapped off-peak single fare is just £10, so you would not have been charged more than £20. However, it looks like the single from Slough to zone 3 is £5, with the zone 1-2 cap at £8.90. But that extension fare is expensive when you realise that Slough to Ealing Broadway off-peak is only £4.50.
I am slightly more interested in your throwaway comment about being charged twice. Have TfL admitted they claimed the fares twice, or have you queried it with your bank? I wonder how widespread it is.
Your understanding is correct. Because the work is major, including midweeks, approval has been made to offer refunds. It can’t be done via the live system because that only gets updated every 4 months. You may remember that while London Bridge was being rebuilt a few years back there were changes to the live fares because the overall duration of the relevant phases was significant enough to make a change. Southeastern probably had to pay TfL to account for lost revenue on journeys that were not forced by the works.
Whilst I’d love to be proved wrong, I don’t see the fact that refunds are being considered for this work as an indicator that they might always be available. Indeed Charing Cross and Waterloo East were closed last Sunday in preparation and there were no refunds available then.
Hi Ealinger,
Firstly apologies for the delays in answering. I’m not quite sure how I missed it. Taking you questions in turn:
According to Google maps it is about 800m between Belsize Park and Hampstead Heath. There are very few OSIs at that distance or more, ignoring some odd NR-NR ones like Paddington to Marylebone that hardly anyone uses. However, one that is also 800m is Leytonstone to Leytonstone High Road. It might be worth asking TfL if they’d consider adding the Hampstead one, though I think they might say the closer Camden interchange would be more popular.
None of the routes are particularly attractive given the need for walking between stations, so I guess they think you might go via Blackhorse Road. Again, you could ask them.
The best way to contact TfL about these issues is via the Help and Contact page on their website, selecting the Tube/Overground/DLR etc option under enquiries.
I believe that the issue with changing at Blackfriars has been resolved by providing a credit if the system detects that you’ve used TfL priced fares only. I certainly tried that one recently and did get a refund automatically. It is likely that contactless will charge correctly in that instance.
Where contactless won’t charge differently is if there is no specific route defined, so your via zone 1 default fare will still be charged via zone 1 unless a defined avoiding zone 1 route is used.
I think it depends whose services are affected. When the Thameslink core used to be shut most weekends, there were absolutely no refunds of the mixed mode premium because the Underground had to be used from London Bridge to Kings Cross.
What will the best way for me to travel with a single TfL Zone 2-6 Oyster fare from Croydon to Harold Wood on that day?
Unfortunately that isn’t possible. However, if you do travel via London Bridge and New Cross Gate and do not touch out at London Bridge then you’ll be charged the slightly more expensive NR Zone 2-6 fare.
has this issue been discussed in the London Assembly?
I don’t know. You could always write to your assembly member and ask them.
Hi Michael,
I’ve had a look but I can’t see anything obvious. The problem is that no buses from Hammersmith go very far in the direction of Croydon, so your last leg will always be relatively short.
The best I can suggest is walking as far towards Wimbledon as you feel able, then touch in at the tram stop as the tram arrives and hope you get lucky. Bear in mind that if you do the journey both ways then the most you’ll be charged is 3 buses, as that is the daily bus/tram cap (£5.25). If you’ve made any other train journeys earlier in the day then they also count towards whatever rail cap you reach.
Trust me, the page has been amended and is now clearer. You can see the previous version at https://web.archive.org/web/20260619195853/https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/60-plus-oyster-photocard although the stupid cookie message gets in the way a bit.
The National Rail services that don’t accept the 60+ Oyster card are HEx and HS1.
The linked map also explains the situation accurately, apart from a spurious column about disabled freedom passes.
Dear Richard,
[Double sigh]
The Rail Ombudsman relies on advice from the train companies, and has obviously spoken to the wrong person at GA. My contact at TfL says that the web page they are relying on will be amended and expects it to go live next week after getting approval. They admit that what is there now is confusing. If it was me, my next move would be to reply with the following bullet points:
- The map at https://content.tfl.gov.uk/60-plus-london-free-travel-national-rail-map.pdf clearly states that travel is valid on National Rail routes operated by Greater Anglia within zones 1-6. That map is linked from the page they are quoting, before the confusing extra bit.
- The Oyster 60+ card is an off-peak travelcard and thus can be used to the boundary of zone 6 along with an appropriate extension ticket without the train needing to stop at the boundary, as per NRCOT 14.3, as long as the travel within zones 1-6 is not before 0930.
- The page they are quoting will be amended at some point next week to remove the confusion
- Request a letter from the MD of GA apologising for the lengthy saga and confirming that what you have asserted all along is in fact the truth.
Good luck.
