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I’ve heard back from TfL. They confirm that validity of the 60+ Oyster is as per the map, and if tickets are held to cover journeys beyond the area then non-stop trains can be used. The website is being reviewed and customer service staff will be reminded what the correct information is.
Thank you Richard once again for bringing the matter to my attention such that it can be dealt with.
Hi kijeta,
Thank you for spotting my coding error, which I’ve now fixed.
I’ve asked a relevant fares expert about your Aylesbury query. An obvious default route would be Chiltern to Harrow-on-the-Hill, Metropolitan to Baker Street, Bakerloo to Regent’s Park. I don’t know why it should be more expensive though. I’ll update when I hear back.
The problem with the in-out-in manoeuvre is that you have to be aware what the fare to the second station (or from the first station) is because that is what will be charged.
Gatwick to West Hampstead Thameslink is £10.70 which will be the intermediate fare charged when you touch out there. Touch in at West Hampstead LU will continue the journey, then touch out there will end it as a Gatwick to West Hampstead LU journey and the charge is then £13.50.
If you’d done the out-in-out manoeuvre at West Hampstead Thameslink then the charge from West Hampstead Thameslink to Willesden Green is undefined. It will charge something, probably including zone 1, but isn’t shown on fare finders because it’s deemed an illogical journey.
Ok, so the train company has taken the piss on everyone relying on the cap or buying Travelcards from Epsom.
To be fair to GTR, they never wanted Epsom to be in zone 9, but the DfT insisted that Epsom be added to Oyster and there were only two ways of doing that; zone 9 with cheaper day caps than desired, or zone 10 and don’t recommend people rely on capping because they couldn’t adjust it all. I think TfL should take a little blame here that their page on the station stated that it was in zone 9. That was probably an unforseen consequence of the way those pages are generated, but it certainly didn’t help the situation.
And now suddenly they have removed the validity of zone 1-9 Travelcard there and can now penalty fare anyone who use his usual ticket to commute to, or through, Epsom, without making any public announcement that the station is rezoned.
The likelihood is that commuters will have been using Epsom to zone 1-6 period travelcards because they were significantly cheaper than the zone 1-9 variety.
Don’t get me wrong, GTR’s refusal to publicise when changes are made is not a good look. They did it before when they got TfL to change how extension fares worked on contactless for Gatwick Airport, and now they’ve done it again. What we have now is almost what was supposed to be put in place in the beginning, so it’s not going to be reversed.
Just to wrap this thread up. Both Epsom and Cuffley are now in zone 10, but if fares exceed the per station caps then a refund will be queued. Zone 1-9 travelcards are NOT valid at either station – they were not supposed to be valid in the first place, but limitations of the Oyster system meant that they had to be at first. The changes were made at the December fare change last year. Neither GTR nor TfL thought to tell me either.
See: https://oysterfares.com/changes-to-oyster-capping-beyond-zone-9-inc-epsom-and-cuffley/ for the full story.
Thank you Vincent. It seems the training didn’t happen, particularly as their MD cant agree with their Revenue Protection manager on the issue
Not to minimise this, but I’m not sure that the MD would necessarily be included within routine training. They should know, obviously, but the fact that the revenue manager did know means that the message is getting through.
Hi Colin,
I agree, it is inconsistent/confusing. I’ve taken out the word Heathrow/ from the description.
You may be surprised to know that some staff at Greater Anglia are confused as well. In terms of a Stratford to Shenfield journey you’re probably better off using the Elizabeth line as it’s then free all the way. If you want to use the fast trains then you need a boundary zone 6 to Shenfield ticket which can be bought online as Colin suggested in the post above. The 60+ Oyster is a zonal ticket, so there is no need for the train to stop at the last station where you switch to the boundary ticket.
Right, I see! So you’re saying that the ‘NR-T’ fare category only EVER applies on journeys that include zone 1? If so then I didn’t see this on the ‘NR-T’ part of the table on your ‘Fares Guide & Tables’ page?
I’m saying that the NR-T fares are the same as NR if the journey doesn’t involve zone 1.
I hadn’t seen that guide with the map until now. That’s very good! The map shows Watford High St where i think Watford Junction should be …
The map is specifically zones 1-9 and Watford Junction is outside that area.
Please do a National Rail journey search for Mill Hill Broadway to Abbey Wood on Monday (there are engineering works complicating it this weekend). You will find direct trains that take 1hr 4min and options with a single change at Farringdon which take 1hr or 1hr 1min. No OSI is required at Farringdon.
Thanks for the history lesson, Si. The point I was rebuffing was that Epsom was only ‘in zone 9’ for Oyster which arrived long after the 2010 period we were talking about.
I don’t know why Freedom passes don’t join journeys together with OSIs. I presume it’s to do with everything being free and perhaps wanting a simpler journey history interface on the photocard site. It’s the same with 60+ Oysters as well. I’m not aware that any checking of journey history goes on with freedom passes. If you were caught between Enfield Lock and Cheshunt then it would be a penalty fare. I guess they could look further into a persons history to see if it was a regular thing, but at the end of the day the pass isn’t valid that way and if you abuse it then you deserve what you get. I wouldn’t risk it myself.
As for Gatwick, you are following the rules if you touch in at the start and out at the end of your journey and stay within the Oyster PAYG area. If you were using PAYG throughout then you’d almost certainly exceed the time allowed for the journey. If you genuinely haven’t left railway premises throughout then you probably are legal, but if checked on a London bound train after leaving Gatwick then I would probably expect some questions.
I’ll send you an email in a minute because I’m genuinely interested in any information you have about the RID devices.
Hi kijeta,
Yes, there are some anomalies at the edges of the Oyster area. The train companies accept that anyone using Oyster in the correct way will be charged according to the fare finder, so it’s not really a grey area. If a travelcard covers the zones shown on my fare finder for the journey made then no extra will be deducted.
In your specific examples, Ewell East to West is described as being a zone 3-6 journey, so a travelcard (on Oyster) would be valid to travel via Epsom with no extra charge. A paper travelcard would not be valid, but I prefer to view that as a benefit of using Oyster. Slade Green to Crayford is well known to me and the same applies, except that there are direct trains between the two which stay within zone 6. If you do travel via Dartford then the same fare would be charged as that is the zonal coverage for that journey.
Did you mean Turkey Street to Enfield Lock via Cheshunt? In that scenario the single fare is described as zones 6-8, so you would be charged extra if you had a zone 1-6 travelcard. If you want to stay within the six zones then you need to travel via Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters using the Victoria line. It is also possible to buy a paper zones 1-9 travelcard by specifying the origin station as Amersham or Brentwood.
In terms of the Freedom Pass or 60+ Oyster card you do need to stay within their specific areas. Whilst you would get away with touching in at Ewell East and out at Ewell West, if an inspector checked your card en-route then you would be treated as having no ticket. Dartford has historically always been in the Freedom Pass area, so that isn’t a problem. Cheshunt is valid on a Freedom Pass as long as you use the Overground services.
Epsom was only added to the Oyster system in the last 3-4 years. Before that it was completely outside. As I’ll be explaining properly soon, Epsom was never supposed to be officially in zone 9, but technically it was put there to enable capping of some sort when Oyster was rolled out there.
Yes indeed, you are always valid with an Oyster card within the Oyster area.
There is an OSI between Waterloo and Waterloo East, so that is pretty much the best example for that fare.
When the Oyster fares were originally set up for the 2010 expansion of PAYG there were a lot of redundant routes put in just in case. In those days pretty much all Oyster fares were solely within zones 1-9 (only Watford Junction and Grays existed beyond that). I agree that in this specific example routes going beyond Wimbledon are pretty pointless. If someone really did want to go from West to East they would probably buy a ticket via Epsom, or take the bus.
Hi JR,
The Elizabeth line core is actually defined as Paddington to Stratford/Abbey Wood. However, there are a number of issues which determine whether the mixed mode will apply to parts of the core.
Taking the Canary Wharf example first. Oakleigh Park to Abbey Wood is historically defined as NR only taking Oakleigh Park to Highbury & Islington to New Cross to Abbey Wood. This was actually a success of this site back in the day. Today you are likely to use the EL from Moorgate/Liverpool Street, but you don’t have to and they can’t tell if you have, so NR fares still apply. It’s likely that they decided that intermediate stations between Liverpool Street and Abbey Wood should also have just NR fares to avoid the situation where travelling further on the same train costs less.
As for Stratford, I’m puzzled. That can also be done only on NR by walking along the EL platforms to Liverpool Street and using a Greater Anglia train. It might be worth asking TfL whether they agree that this counts as an option avoiding any of the EL core. You could also make the journey changing at Highbury & Islington and avoid zone 1 altogether, thus getting an even cheaper fare.
Hi JR,
Through fares using both old NR and LU/DLR are only more expensive if the journey includes travel in zone 1. If not, the same fares as just old NR are charged. Old means late adopting routes that joined in Jan 2010 (eg Southeastern) as opposed to routes that charged TfL fares before then (eg c2c).
Hi Talster,
Yes, Box Hill and Westhumble was added to the stations accepting PAYG with contactless in December 2025. If there are no gates at that station then there will be validators, usually positioned either side of each exit. I’ve not been there personally.
Frustratingly I’m still waiting for the answer to an edge case question before publishing the full story. You are correct that GTR didn’t feel the need to publicise the changes (they have form for this, remember Gatwick?).
Hi Phil,
I missed the 60+ in the title originally, so this isn’t the issue I thought. It is still an issue, and maybe your history might help resolving it, but it is specific to 60+ Oysters where no fares are actually charged.
Paddington to Whitton is allowed 1 hour 50 minutes on weekdays so you just exceeded that time, hence it showing two journeys. Validators don’t know which way you’re going, so if you’ve timed out it will always start a new journey. Did your daughter make the same journey on a paid card? If so she’ll need to get it adjusted.
Hi Phil,
Can you provide further details, please. The rough time you touched out and in again, plus your journey history as it currently shows. TfL can’t see a fault at the moment.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks Phil,
I’m sure that the touches will catch up at some point, hopefully before contactless users are charged a maximum fare. It does sometimes get stuck, but the data is never lost and will be transferred when the connection is fixed.
