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Under normal circumstances, I take this journey by changing at West Hampstead, however, during this period, there are engineering works closing the line through West Hampstead which means the normal zone 2 only route is unavailable, and at the same time, there is also another engineering work closing the line from Liverpool Street which makes the zone 1-2 route unavailable as well.
The best route available to me now is to change between Swiss Cottage (Jubilee line) and South Hampstead (Mildmay line), as a replacement of the West Hampstead interchange, which is a “false OSI”, shown on the tube map but not really an OSI as previously reported.
Has anyone used this route recently and what is the fare charged? Is it still two separate fares? On a related route, Kilburn High Road to Hackney Central was defined as Zone 1-2 by default despite that a direct train travels wholly in zone 2, has this been fixed as well?
Hi Michael,
The dotted lines on the tube map are described as “less than a 10 minute walk” as opposed to an out-of-station-interchange, although the circle for the station does mean interchange, so I guess it’s a bit confusing. Unless they have added an OSI since the list was last published, using that interchange will result in two fares. Under normal circumstances there is little point in an OSI between those stations because just about any journey can be made without resorting to walking down the street.
On the other matter, direct trains only run on a few days a year when engineering diversions mean trains pass through Primrose Hill. I don’t think TfL will entertain defining that as a default route when it isn’t available for most of the time. As someone who might benefit when it does happen, feel free to request that they consider it. It’s probably best to send an email or fill out a help an contact webform, but a phone call to the helpdesk might result in them taking details and calling you back later on.
The Lioness line diagram and announcement now officially shows South Hampstead / Swiss Cottage as an interchange.
I plan to try this interchange once this week and, if it results in two fares, I’ll make a complaint to TfL using this diagram as evidence.
Harringay Green Lanes and Manor House have been shown as closeby for decades. There are even road signs pointing the way. It’s still not an OSI.
If things aren’t fixed by TfL I am planning to raise this matter to London Travelwatch and possibly my MP as it is clearly an important issue for my area.
This diversionary route has become much more important over the last few years and has been used much more frequently, from just a few weekend a year with 30-minute frequency to now a whole week with 15-minute frequency.
Swiss Cottage / South Hampstead serves the exact same function as West Hampstead when the Mildmay line is diverted.
I fear you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the meanings and mechanisms behind the TfL map notation and fare setting practices.
Good luck though.
Since the Overground line renaming all the official materials have shown South Hampstead / Swiss Cottage as an interchange inside both Lioness line and Jubilee line trains, and after this week long diversion, there are still three weekends in the coming two months where this diversionary route is used.
An unusual London Overground trip is possible during Betwixmas
I’ll also follow up this matter with an FOI in February to ask how many people do this South Hampstead / Swiss Cottage interchange within 20 minutes on the diversion days, compared to normal days.
A previous FOI was posted on the issue of overcharging on direct trains but it was beyond the 8-week limit for the Oyster data to be retained, and now there are enough diversion days within an 8-week window for this matter to be seriously investigated.
What I mean by my comment is that you are interpreting the word ‘Interchange’ on a printed route map as meaning something specific in the context of the TfL fare structure. That’s your interpretation, which is fine, but it isn’t (as far as I know) TfL’s interpretation. The full map illustrates this with its use of words similar to “a less than 10 minute walking distance”.
The fare structure is/should be what’s published in the fare finder database. That isn’t overridden by what’s printed on maps or what route a passenger actually travels. If mobile Bluetooth tracking ever gets off the ground, that may change. We’re not there yet.
To be clear (because I’m paranoid about writing clearly), I’m not suggesting you shouldn’t request this change if you want to but I that’s a different approach to what I think you’re proposing.
I must admit, Feathers, that I share your concern. However, if these ‘interchanges’ are indeed being shown on car line diagrams then I think that potentially changes things. I’m intending making some requests later in the month and will include this case along with some others when I do.
In the abstract, the word ‘Interchange’ isn’t inaccurate. I agree with you, however, in this specific case because of the use on the tube map of the words “internal interchange” which does normally imply a lack of gateline obstructions or OSIs where there are gatelines. (I can’t say that’s an absolute truth but it could be a fair interpretation.)
Of course, none of that is implied or stated in the use of the word ‘interchange’ but it would be clearer to use different terms for different circumstances on the car line diagrams just as they do on the tube map.
I travelled a round trip on this route today and a total of £5.90 was deducted from my Oyster card with National Railcard discount (£1.30 + £1.90 + £1.90 + £0.80).
I’ll write a complaint to TfL with the web form, as the in-car diagram and announcement on the Mildmay line train when approaching South Hampstead confirm that these stations are now an official pair of interchange stations.
What does “official” mean in this context? It’s not a word TfL use so won’t have any formal meaning with them that you can rely on to prove a point.
If the charges you received tally with the fare finder numbers, you’ll be looking for a good-will gesture at best for any sort of payout, I’m afraid.
I have received the reply of my enquiry and TL;DR it is not going to do anything and tell me to phone up for a refund.
Thank you for your web form of 3 January about fares in relation to Mildmay diversions through Queen’s Park.
Firstly, I am genuinely sorry if you have been inconvenienced on your journeys when a Mildmay line diversion has been in place.
Quite simply, and having spoken to a colleague of mine with many years of experience on fares, whilst we thank you for (and note) your suggestion, it will not be possible to make the fare adjustments you request. I know you state that Mildmay line diversions will become more commonplace, but, at the time of writing, I cannot find any information that this will be the case.
My advice to you, when there is a rare Mildmay line diversion and you believe you have paid a fare amount higher than it should be, is to make a journey refund claim. From looking at your account, I can see that you are familiar with calling us up and lodging a refund claim with telephony agents.
Thanks again for contacting us. If there is anything else we can help you with, please reply to this email. Alternatively, you can call us on 0343 222 1234 and we’ll be happy to help you.
I plan to escalate this matter. TfL has the ability to activate emergency OSIs on a temporary basis which can be a short term solution to the South Hampstead interchange before they bother to fix the fares, while the direct train problem will require a fare update cycle to fix.
I’m not quite sure why the forum software decided that your last post was spam, but I’ve restored it now.
To be honest, I’m not that surprised by their response. I don’t think they really want to set fares that are only possible on occasional days in a year. I’m also not convinced that setting an emergency OSI on its own will have the desired effect.
The South Hampstead to Swiss Cottage issue is part of a different problem, showing interchanges that don’t join journeys together on the tube map and carriage diagrams. I’m about to request some information about usage of four of those pairs, along with a pair that isn’t shown on the map but is walkable in about 5 minutes. Watch this space for more.
I have now got the numbers I want in FOI-4165-2526:
For cards affected by the Zone 1 charge:
On a diversion weekend:
No journeys between the stops on the diversionary route and the eastern section of the Mildmay line with a pink touch at Willesden Junction;
3233 journeys between the stops on the diversionary route and the eastern section of the Mildmay line without a pink touch at Willesden Junction (the journeys which I consider being overcharged).On a normal weekend:
8 journeys between the stops on the diversionary route and the eastern section of the Mildmay line with a pink touch at Willesden Junction (the intended use of the pink reader fare);
196 journeys between the stops on the diversionary route and the eastern section of the Mildmay line without a pink touch at Willesden Junction (for which travel via Zone 1 is assumed);
6792 journeys between the stops on the normal route and the eastern section of the Mildmay line.The above number clearly shows that, when the diversion is not in place, the amount of journeys taken between the stops on the diversionary route and the eastern section of Mildmay line is only a tiny fraction compared to when the diversionary route is active. In contrast, the diversionary route still carries half of the normal traffic, which can now totally justify the recent enhancement of the diversionary service to 4 tph (which used to be 2 tph), compared to 8 tph on the normal route. It also means that half of the normal Mildmay line traffic is now overcharged due to the diversion, 16 times of the number of Zone 1 journeys on a normal weekend whose revenue needs to be protected. As these journeys are rarely made without the diversion, but with significant traffic when the diversion is active, the revenue protection need, as such, is clearly disproportionate to the detriment of normal Zone 2 only passengers who are forced to use the Zone 2 only diversionary route and getting overcharged because the normal route is closed.
For journeys involving Swiss Cottage / South Hampstead:
On a diversion weekend, there were 280 journeys where a pair of touches were made between the stations within 20 minutes, while on a normal weekend, there were just 89, which means that this signposted “fake-OSI” serves a real interchange function between the diversionary Mildmay line route and the Jubilee line, fulfilled by West Hampstead under normal circumstances, penalising passengers again due to the diversion.I will write to my MP soon about this matter as I live in the affected area, using all of the stations between Willesden Junction and Gospel Oak regularly.
I’ve got to admit that that result is a lot clearer than I thought. It is possible that the fares team at TfL who will have helped to create the results for that request may now be looking at the outcome. Hopefully contacting your MP might increase the pressure to do something.
I’m still not convinced that they will create flows for the diversion route in the fares table, but they may look to make adjustments afterwards following a weekend when the diversion is in place. It may depend on how many of the overcharges were actually mitigated by reaching a cap anyway.
I’ve got to hand it to you for persevering with this issue.
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