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I was just browsing the Single Fare Finder, when I noticed that for Ewell West <-> Ewell East, one of the alternative routes is “Via Zone 1 using National Rail services only” (zones 1-6 NR scale).
What exact taps will that be looking for? I can’t quite work out any sensible routes which go via z1 using NR only, which involves intermediate taps. The only one I can think of is
EWW
SWR -> WAT
osi to WAE
SE -> LBG
SN -> EWE, which involves an OSI at WAT->WAE.
I’d struggle to say this route is sensible and that anyone would use it?
Moreover, why is this an explicit alternative route? Even if it weren’t shown as an alternative route, I would assume the behaviour would still be the same if there was an osi at WAT->WAE, since the later taps in the same journey after an OSI/CE cannot retroactively “reduce” the fare.
Thanks 🙂
There is an OSI between Waterloo and Waterloo East, so that is pretty much the best example for that fare.
When the Oyster fares were originally set up for the 2010 expansion of PAYG there were a lot of redundant routes put in just in case. In those days pretty much all Oyster fares were solely within zones 1-9 (only Watford Junction and Grays existed beyond that). I agree that in this specific example routes going beyond Wimbledon are pretty pointless. If someone really did want to go from West to East they would probably buy a ticket via Epsom, or take the bus.
Thanks. Surely back then, Epsom was still in zone 9? That only got moved very very recently.
For Ewell West<->East. The cheapest paper ticket option is actually a split ticket (unsurprisingly splitting at Epsom). But PAYG is still marginally cheaper (15p difference for adult, and 5p difference for railcard). Since Epsom is within the Oyster zone, am I right in saying it’s perfectly legal to use Oyster for the sensible (via Epsom) route?
Epsom was only added to the Oyster system in the last 3-4 years. Before that it was completely outside. As I’ll be explaining properly soon, Epsom was never supposed to be officially in zone 9, but technically it was put there to enable capping of some sort when Oyster was rolled out there.
Yes indeed, you are always valid with an Oyster card within the Oyster area.
So this would make Ewell West<->East one of those station pairs where the most sensible route cannot legally be done on a z1-6 paper travelcard (or freedom pass).
Is it alright to do so with a z1-6 season travelcard loaded onto a blue oyster card? I feel like it’s a grey area, since clearly Epsom isn’t included in the travelcard, and the passenger would not have paid for the extension with an EWE<->EWW journey, but then they did have a PAYG element on the card to show intention (and ability) to pay for Epsom…
Other similar situations I can think of are:
Cheshunt <-> Enfield Lock (for freedom pass. N/A for paper travelcard, legal for z1-9 cap)
Slade Green <-> Crayford (for z1-6 paper travelcard. legal for freedom pass)
Anything else?Hi kijeta,
Yes, there are some anomalies at the edges of the Oyster area. The train companies accept that anyone using Oyster in the correct way will be charged according to the fare finder, so it’s not really a grey area. If a travelcard covers the zones shown on my fare finder for the journey made then no extra will be deducted.
In your specific examples, Ewell East to West is described as being a zone 3-6 journey, so a travelcard (on Oyster) would be valid to travel via Epsom with no extra charge. A paper travelcard would not be valid, but I prefer to view that as a benefit of using Oyster. Slade Green to Crayford is well known to me and the same applies, except that there are direct trains between the two which stay within zone 6. If you do travel via Dartford then the same fare would be charged as that is the zonal coverage for that journey.
Did you mean Turkey Street to Enfield Lock via Cheshunt? In that scenario the single fare is described as zones 6-8, so you would be charged extra if you had a zone 1-6 travelcard. If you want to stay within the six zones then you need to travel via Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters using the Victoria line. It is also possible to buy a paper zones 1-9 travelcard by specifying the origin station as Amersham or Brentwood.
In terms of the Freedom Pass or 60+ Oyster card you do need to stay within their specific areas. Whilst you would get away with touching in at Ewell East and out at Ewell West, if an inspector checked your card en-route then you would be treated as having no ticket. Dartford has historically always been in the Freedom Pass area, so that isn’t a problem. Cheshunt is valid on a Freedom Pass as long as you use the Overground services.
Thanks. Does this mean it’s actually perfectly legal for a z1-2 season travelcard (on oyster) holder to go to Gatwick and back into z2, without taps, for free? I’m aware that the revenue protection devices say the approximate zones on the top right corner of the screen – will that have any implications?
For Turkey Street to Enfield Lock, it usually involves a mandatory tap at either Tottenham Hale or Liverpool St (same station OSI). But equally it’s possible to do it without taps, and physically stay in z6 the entire time, by changing at Hackney Downs instead. Considering freedom passes (are 60+ oysters the same?) cannot handle OSIs, does that mean a Turkey Street (or Cheshunt) to Enfield Lock journey would raise alarm bells for staff checking the journey history afterwards? (I presume it’s unlikely that anything automated would catch it out.)
Side note: is there a particular reason that freedom passes cannot handle OSIs?
I don’t know why Freedom passes don’t join journeys together with OSIs. I presume it’s to do with everything being free and perhaps wanting a simpler journey history interface on the photocard site. It’s the same with 60+ Oysters as well. I’m not aware that any checking of journey history goes on with freedom passes. If you were caught between Enfield Lock and Cheshunt then it would be a penalty fare. I guess they could look further into a persons history to see if it was a regular thing, but at the end of the day the pass isn’t valid that way and if you abuse it then you deserve what you get. I wouldn’t risk it myself.
As for Gatwick, you are following the rules if you touch in at the start and out at the end of your journey and stay within the Oyster PAYG area. If you were using PAYG throughout then you’d almost certainly exceed the time allowed for the journey. If you genuinely haven’t left railway premises throughout then you probably are legal, but if checked on a London bound train after leaving Gatwick then I would probably expect some questions.
I’ll send you an email in a minute because I’m genuinely interested in any information you have about the RID devices.
Epsom was only added to the Oyster system in the last 3-4 years.
It might feel like only 3-4 years ago, but it’s twice that: 7 years ago – February 2019! https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/17452283.epsom-finally-join-oyster-pay-go-travel-cards-freedom-pass-not-included/
The last stations added to expand Oyster’s geographic scope* were August 2019 with Potters Bar and Radlett. Brookmans Park was added as contactless-only at that time, and every expansion since has been contactless-only.
*Nine Elms, Battersea Power Station, Canary Wharf EL, Custom House EL, Woolwich, Barking Riverside, and Brent Cross West were all added to Oyster post-2019, when the station opened, but were within the existing area covered by Oyster PAYG.
Thanks for the history lesson, Si. The point I was rebuffing was that Epsom was only ‘in zone 9’ for Oyster which arrived long after the 2010 period we were talking about.
Having messed around with the fare finder again, I found an example like Aylesbury -> Regent’s Park, where a cheaper alternative route is “via Z1 / London Terminals”. What routeing would the default route be?
Side note, Shepperton -> Shenfield seem to erroneously show both “no caps available” and the details of the applicable caps.
Hi kijeta,
Thank you for spotting my coding error, which I’ve now fixed.
I’ve asked a relevant fares expert about your Aylesbury query. An obvious default route would be Chiltern to Harrow-on-the-Hill, Metropolitan to Baker Street, Bakerloo to Regent’s Park. I don’t know why it should be more expensive though. I’ll update when I hear back.
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