City Thameslink-St Pauls and Manor House-Harringay Green Lanes

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  • #284
    Si Hollett
    Participant

    These have been marked with a dashed line on the Rail and Tube Map since they started drawing (some) “Under a 10 minute walk between stations” links on there, and now (with Thameslink added in today’s revision) both appear on the Tube Map.

    However, neither of them are valid out-of-station interchanges. If TfL is endorsing changing between these stations, why does doing so break your journey?

    • This topic was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by Si Hollett.
    #288
    Mike
    Moderator

    It’s a good question. Obviously it breaks the journey because it isn’t an OSI, but I’m inclined to agree that if they’re shown on the map then they should be valid OSIs.

    #290
    Si Hollett
    Participant

    Caledonian Road – Caledonian Road & Barnsbury is another such non-OSI confusing marked with a line between them on the map.

    #291
    Chris D.
    Participant

    Also Swiss Cottage / South Hampstead.

    City Thameslink / St Paul’s is the only dotted line without an OSI in Zone 1 though, and is soon to be also displayed on the Tube Map. Adding that is becoming urgent in my view, tourists and visitors will use it.

    #292
    Miles Thomas
    Participant

    Is there a definitive list of dotted lines that are not OSI? (Chris D pipped me to the Swiss Cottage one, which is local to me, and is a longstanding gap in stations which should be an OSI although wouldn’t get a huge amount of use).

    Is it worth updating the OSI list on the main website to indicate which OSI are marked with dotted lines and have a supplemental list of which are not?

    Worth passing this as a complaint to various “official” representative groups (Londontravelwatch? or am I mis-remembering )

    #296
    Mike
    Moderator

    Some good comments here.

    TfL’s official stance is that the dotted lines are there to indicate nearby stations, not just to highlight interchanges. My OSI list already indicates the rough distance between stations so I don’t really see a point in saying whether the link is dotted or not. I also don’t really want to highlight non-OSIs as I think that’s confusing. Better to get them made into OSIs and then add them to the list.

    Also, if Caledonian Road is shown on the map, Bethnal Green (LO) to Whitechapel (LO) also should be as they’re the same distance according to Google maps. I’m sure that would also get quite a bit of use as an avoiding zone 1 option. They’ll have to redraw the map to show it though.

    #297
    Miles Thomas
    Participant

    Having a succinct list of the “dotted not OSI” would help with campaigning, which is the real benefit, in the sense of TfL setting incorrect expectations.

    As would a list of station pairs (which have line/mode interchanges) that are shorter than the current most distant OSI (in m) to argue the precedent for those too.

    I agree, the other way round is less useful

    #299
    Chris D.
    Participant

    I do think TfL needs to decide what the dotted lines mean. “Walkable and has an OSI” is one definition, but equally it might be useful to someone to know a destination station is near another so they can use a more convenient route. For example, Battersea Park and Queenstown Road Battersea – there are no rational interchanges anyone would want to make but it could be useful for journey planning purposes to know of the proximity.

    #301
    Mike
    Moderator

    OK, I’ll consider how best to list this issue. The second longest OSI is only available as alternative bus options in the area are so sparse (Ickenham – West Ruislip). The longest is a bit strange and really doesn’t need to exist but I think contractual obligations stipulated it (Paddington NR – Marylebone NR). In general TfL won’t consider any OSI that’s half a mile or more.

    #302
    Miles Thomas
    Participant

    I suspect the Paddington/Marylebone OSI is also partly there for those occasions when there is a train blockage between Birmingham and Euston (WCML) and travellers are diverted onto the Birmingham to Marylebone route. And vice versa.

    Marylebone tube is not really designed for dealing with heavily loaded express train surges of passengers so having nearby OSI to Paddington (and other Local tube options) makes sense in terms of onward journeys in a safe and quick way.

    May make even more sense once the Lizzie line is fully operational, to allow continuations from zonal train journeys into Marylebone (not served) to Lizzie Line destinations. (I assume there are some..haven’t checked, not my line, I’m local to Marylebone)

    A list of station pairs that offer interchanges that are under half a mile and not benefiting from an OSI would be useful as part of a campaigning list including the dotted not OSI–avoiding the two long outliers mentioned by Mike would be useful.

    Maybe combined with a list of station pairs that benefit from the “short journey just over a zone boundary” discount (e.g. St Johns Wood to Baker Street/Marylebone gets a discount in peak so isn’t the full cost of Z2 to Z1 peak fare om Oyster)

    #303
    Mike
    Moderator

    The Birmingham thing probably explains why there might be a magnetic OSI between the two terminals, but in terms of Oyster it doesn’t make a difference. The OSI is only between the two NR stations, so no benefit for other tube options. The Elizabeth line might depend on how that is classified at Paddington. The reason I don’t think it should be there is that both lines head out West with their first stop some way out from London (Wembley Stadium and Acton Main Line) so I just don’t think people use it. This is backed up by it being the least used OSI in the whole system, apart from the redundant one at Hackney Central/Downs.

    At risk of going massively off-topic, I still don’t really understand your fascination with the short-hop Underground fares across the zone 1-2 boundary. As far as I know their existance pre-dates the Oyster system by a long time. They’re not the only special case in zones 1-6 either. There are a huge swathe of journeys using NR from south and south-west London to Vauxhall or Elephant & Castle, then changing to the tube for a zone 1 only trip, where the fare charged is the sum of the two parts rather than the normal NR1-T scale fare. There also used to be some special cases on the East London line where an NR1 fare was charged rather than TfL-LU, but I think the mayor’s fare freeze put an end to those.

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