Tube map false OSIs

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  • #4723
    Joel Colyer
    Participant

    I was travelling on the Piccadilly line this weekend, and coming south from Oakwood, I thought I would change at Manor House, walk to Harringay Green Lanes and from there, catch a train towards Walthamstow, to avoid having to go further into London and come back out again.

    I was not impressed when I checked my journey history and found that I had been charged for two separate journeys, one from Oakwood to Manor House, and one from Harringay Green Lanes to Walthamstow QR. I had expected that as there was a dotted walking connection from one to the other, that this would be an OSI.

    I then had a look at the OSI list on this website, and sure enough, the one in question is not there. I then had a look to see if any other ‘walking connections’ are not actually OSIs. Turns out that Swiss Cottage to South Hampstead is also not an OSI, and the connections between Woolwich and Woolwich Arsenal to the DLR are also not. This is even worse, as Woolwich Arsenal NR to DLR is shown as a full interchange and not just a dotted line.

    I think it’s really naughty of TfL to advertise these ‘walking connections’ when they may actually end up costing a customer two fares instead of one.

    What can be done about this?

    #4724
    Mike (admin)
    Keymaster

    Hi Joel,

    I’m completely with you on this topic. Manor House to Harringay Green Lanes is a signposted walk and I do think it should be an OSI. Making the case for such interchanges is a background task which I am progressing at the moment. You could certainly write to TfL and request that they consider adding it. The more people who do so increases the chance that it might happen. There are certainly plenty of journey opportunities that would benefit from it.

    Looking at your other coments, South Hampstead to Swiss Cottage is not quite so clear cut. Both lines head out in a similar North West direction so it’s not clear how many people would benefit. In this case, the stated definition of the dotted line, which is to indicate nearby stations under 10 minutes walking distance, is probably justified. They cleverly don’t describe the dotted line as an interchange, but I agree that the distinction between the two is blurred.

    As for Woolwich, there are only two stations, Woolwich (EL) and Woolwich Arsenal. The latter contains both the DLR and SE/TL behind the same gatelines. There is an OSI defined between the two stations. The map certainly doesn’t help putting the DLR so far away from the National Rail lines.

    #4727
    Joel Colyer
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for replying. I’ve written to TfL stating my thoughts on the matter.

    It is true that the dotted line is ‘under a 10 minute walk between stations’ but in this case, Manor House is also depicted as an interchange blob on the map. Interchange with what? Harringay Green Lanes is the only answer, so logically it should follow that just as with any other interchange, this should allow continuation of a journey. I’ve also stated this to TfL.

    Let’s see what they have to say

    #4728
    Mike (admin)
    Keymaster

    Hi Joel,

    Thanks for taking this up, the more that do the better.

    #4734
    Si Hollett
    Participant

    Isn’t the aim of theses non-interchanges being shown like that on the map as “here’s an alternative station for those locations”? In which case, why not show stuff like Bayswater/Queensway or Regent’s Park/Great Portland Street where Londoners know that the stations are really close, but other people don’t?

    It doesn’t help that the vast majority of station-station links (and still a majority even if you include links to modes that don’t have the same pricing structure: Trams, Cable Car, HS1, and the River) are valid OSIs with only a few exceptions that aren’t.

    Using the walking links to link two stations with the same name at places like Hammersmith, Elephant & Castle, and Canary Wharf also reinforces the mostly-correct, but not correct, idea that these are OSIs being shown.

    By my reckoning, there are four ‘false friends’:
    Harringay Green Lanes – Manor House
    Caledonian Road – Caledonian Road & Barnsbury
    City Thameslink – St Pauls
    Swiss Cottage – South Hampstead

    #4745
    Mike
    Moderator

    Hi Si,

    Yes, I agree with the four exceptions. I think in general they don’t show nearby stations in zone 1 because almost all stations are within 10 minutes walk of another. I’ll be interested to see what TfL respond with to Joel.

    #4756
    Colin Newman
    Participant

    I believe Leytonstone <-> Leytonstone High Rd is an OSI but it’s not indicated on either the so-called Tube map or the more useful ‘London’s Rail & Tube services’ map. Google maps thinks it can be walked in 10 minutes.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by Colin Newman.
    #4758
    Mike
    Moderator

    Yes it is an OSI. It’s on the subjective limit of what 10 minutes walk is.

    #4849
    Mike (admin)
    Keymaster

    Just to bring this up to date. At the same time as asking for the number of people using each actual OSI pair, I also asked for data for Manor House to Harringay Green Lanes. It’s being used by 20-40 people a day in both directions with a 4-week total of 874. This would put it 102nd out of 123 OSIs (once duplicate station codes have been agregated). It’s not as big as the other case I’m looking at – more on that in a day or so – but I’d still support it being added.

    #4869
    Joel Colyer
    Participant

    Hi all,

    Thought I would update the forum with TfL’s response to me:

    Thanks for your feedback of 19 March about interchanges displayed on our maps.

    I’m sorry that we’ve not gotten back to you sooner regarding the points that you raised. I can certainly appreciate the perspective that all interchanges be favourable in terms of fare prices.

    The close proximity of the services you mention are indeed useful, and we are of course always looking at ways of promoting the use of public transport. In recent years, fare structures have been used to do this. We introduced bus hopper fares, fare capping, and extension fares to make the structure fairer and more efficient.

    When the geography of the railways in London is such that there is no realistic opportunity to make a given journey reasonably quickly without leaving one station and entering another en route, an out-of-station interchange will be considered as a potential solution. We do not have the authority to set all fares in London however. Out-of-station interchanges in the London area are determined through consultation with National Rail train operating companies.

    We will continue to display information regarding the close proximity of different rail modes, but they may not all be set to being out-of-station interchanges.

    #4871
    Mike (admin)
    Keymaster

    Thanks for the update Joel. It’s a bit non-committal really.

    #4874
    Joel Colyer
    Participant

    Yes its a bit of a cop out response in my opinion. Definitely agree with you that it should be added though, along with Bethnal Green LO to Whitechapel. Manor House to Harringay Green Lanes probably makes more of a difference if you want to go towards Gospel Oak on the GOBLIN, as going eastbound, it is possible to go 1 stop more to Finsbury Park and take the Victoria to connect at Blackhorse Road.

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