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Hi Alexander,
No, you can’t. The National Rail fares database has existed since at least privatisation, maybe before. The PAYG fares database was created to run the original Oyster system in the early 2000s after TfL gave up waiting for the government to specify a smartcard solution. [It’s Cubic by the way, not Cubitt, who run TfL’s revenue contract] As far as charging people for PAYG the master database is TfLs. National Rail wanted to show PAYG fares on National Rail Enquiries so they set up psuedo fare types so they could handle that. I don’t know why they didn’t access the live fares database like my site does, but I’m sure there were reasons. Because there is no link between the databases it is a manualish job to enter the fares onto National Rail. Mistakes often creep in via this process. The bottom line is that all PAYG fares are charged according to TfL/Cubic, be they tube, dlr, NR, cable car, boats, buses, trams etc etc etc.
Actually I’ve worked out what’s happened. When the fares were increased back in March, GWR have added the standard increase to all their fares. What they forgot was that the zone 1 tube fare did not increase, so the difference between Paddington and any other Z1 station should have remained at £2.80 or £2.70 off peak.
Hi Tracy,
Unfortunately very little is logical about UK rail fares since privatisation 30 years ago. The specific issue here is between who sets the fares. On the Cricklewood line it is GTR. They charge by zones within London, and there are no off-peak fares to encourage use of PAYG. London Overground is part of TfL and their stick to promote use of PAYG is to charge very high cash prices.
This is all well and good until you need to use a paper ticket for a days out offer.
Hi,
GWR set the fares from Reading to anywhere else. I agree that something is wrong, but TfL just charge what they’ve been told. I suggest you contact GWR and ask them why it’s cheaper to split with two cards.
Yes, they are both easy. According to Google maps the Brondesbury one takes about 3 minutes while the West Hampstead one is probably only a minute (but you do have to cross the road). Obviously there is the walking time within the stations to add in.
If you click on “Information Pages” at the top, then “Interchanging Trains” and finally “OSI List” you’ll get a list of all the interchanges. In the Outer London OSIs section, click on the distance alongside the OSI you’re interested in and it will display a map showing how to get between the stations. Note that the West Hampstead map shows the route between the two furthest apart, the Overground station is in the middle.
Well, thanks very much for your dedication, which I know you will have enjoyed. The whole misunderstanding stems from my mistaken belief that Wembley Park was further east from West Hampstead. No idea what caused that, but it explains my sentence “I’d only normally suggest it if turning away from London.”
Thanks for the input, Alan. Curious as to why you think Kilburn-Brondesbury is quicker than West Hampstead? I’d only normally suggest it if turning away from London.
Hi Alexander,
Beyond zones 1-9 there is no set rationale for setting fares or caps. They are both set by the operator responsible for the fares. In the case of Reading to London this is GWR. Because PAYG fares are all singles, peak fares are charged going away from London in the afternoon peak. This is so that commuters pay two peak singles (equivalent to an Anytime return). If all your travel is after 0930 then the off-peak cap will apply and will limit the effect of a peak single.
The routeing guide is not really about fares in the same way my tables are for zones 1-9. It’s concerned with defining permitted routes.
Until TfL work out how to handle discounts on contactless then sadly you may find paper tickets with a discount are cheaper than contactless fares.
So, I’ve done some manual analysis and it appears as though Chiltern are copying the usual pattern of charging off-peak in the afternoon peak if the destination is in zone 1. Additionally it’s off peak if you only use Chiltern trains, hence the two Ruislips, Sudbury Hill Harrow and Wembley Stadium all get afternoon off-peak. This may be the way all the Project Oval extensions work, we’ll have to see.
There are some anomalies, particularly the alternative routes for Oxford Circus.
Thanks for the further thoughts. I’m not at this stage suggesting who is wrong, if indeed anyone is. There are some potentially unwanted side effects to what is currently set up though. More later.
You can also travel back from Watford Junction to Watford High Street if you take the faster train. Every 15 minutes and takes about 3.
Hi Richard,
Clapham Junction is not on the list of places to avoid, so you can change there. You could use the Southern service to Watford Junction from there, or use London Overground and change again at Willesden Junction.
Yes, that would work Feathers. It’s a bit of a roundabout route though. Merstham to East Croydon to Norwood Junction to Whitechapel to Liverpool Street is probably more direct, albeit with an extra change or two.
Hi Jolyon,
It all depends where you are changing and whether you have to go through a gateline or two between trains.
At Farringdon, everthing is within the same gateline so there is no need to touch in/out, unless you end up going the wrong way which will mean touching out, crossing the road, and touching back in. The two journeys will be joined together unless you take longer than 10 minutes to cross the road (you won’t). If you follow the signs for Thameslink at Farringdon you shouldn’t end up at the gates. There is no need to touch either of the validators between the Elizabeth line escalators and the northbound Thameslink platform – they are only needed if you are using a paper ticket on Thameslink.
At Woolwich/Woolwich Arsenal you will have a short walk between stations, but again if you do it within 20 minutes the journeys will be joined together. I think I’d go the other way from City Airport to Canning Town and then to Custom House on the DLR. At Custom House you must touch out at any of the validators above the DLR station before touching in through the gate for the Elizabeth line.
In short, yes the system will join together the bits of the journey so you’ll only pay for one trip.
Hi Chris,
I very much doubt that the fare tables will be changed just for this one day, so sadly it will be a NR Mixed fare (NR-T). Do let me know if I’m wrong.
That’s good to know. I know why it was the cheaper fare, but I thought they might have over-ridden it for Heathrow.
Hi Janet,
Sorry for the delay. Accompanied children under 11 do travel free between Watford Junction and Euston, as per this map: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/free-travel-areas-without-oyster-adult-accompanying-map.pdf.
The adults can use either Oyster or contactless. No need to book tickets in advance.
Hi Roger,
I’m guessing that one journey was made during the afternoon peak, requiring the anytime single fare for that direction coupled with the off-peak single fare in the other.
The changes were introduced on December 3rd, so you just missed the change at the end of November. This is very much being driven by the Department for Transport. I’m not sure that they fully understood the implications for people travelling in the afternoon peak. They were supposed to happen at the same time as the contactless rollout, but that got delayed until the Spring.
When contactless does get rolled out I would expect the fares to be capped at the cheaper of (a) Sevenoaks to zones 1-6 travelcard and 2x extension fares to Bletchley, or (b) Bletchley to zones 1-6 travelcard and 2x extension fares to Sevenoaks. Unfortunately the DfT are being ultra secretive about exactly how the extension fares will be set, and TfL are complying with the instruction not to discuss this publicly. It is very frustrating.
Even worse for people like you is that concessions are not due to be implimented until phase 2 of project Oval, and that may be quite a while away given that phase 1 is now very late.
Hi Ian,
Norwood Junction to Clapham Junction via Surrey Quays is two trains rather than one and takes considerably longer than the direct Southern services. To get to Imperial Wharf requires a further train in both cases so I presume that they figure few if any people would do it.
You could email TfL and ask if they’d consider adding the fare. It would presumably be beneficial to them as it would indicate using more of their services. It would have to be cleared with the TOCs though as Southern also operate between Clapham Junction and Imperial Wharf.
Hi,
I’m not aware of any provision for applying for and maintaining a 60+ Oyster other than online. It’s a non-statutory concession so I think they’re free to operate the scheme however they feel is appropriate. You could contact TfL and ask them, or perhaps write to your London Assembly member as the concession is funded essentially by the mayor.
As a 60+ Oyster card holder myself, I wouldn’t be without it for any reason. You could set up a specific email address just for that purpose and only use it for maintenance of the 60+ card. It would be an interesting case study in proving whether or not TfL do share your data with anyone. I suspect that they don’t, but I have no proof either way.
