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Hi Michael,
That’s a good spot. They used to be the same but recently TfL have been separating fares like that. I’ll need to make some changes shortly.
So, yesterday I travelled from Crossharbour to London Bridge NR via Greenwich without touching any validators en-route. Here is the journey history:
OK, my son (who lived near Waterloo for a year) and I went up there a few days ago so I can now offer a more comprehensive answer. If you enter from Waterloo Road through the colonade then there are three ways you can go. Straight ahead on the left are escalators up to the mainline station opposite platforms 3-4. To the right of those escalators is the Jubilee line ticket hall with escalators going down after you’ve been through gates. As you look at those gates from near the NR escalators there is a set of steps up to a balcony which is signposted for the Waterloo and City line. Follow the signs after climbing the steps and you’ll get there quite quickly.
The only other street entrance to the Underground that we are aware of is in York Road where the Shell Centre is. If you use that entrance then you will have to enter through gates and exit again before getting to the Waterloo and City platforms. So instead of using that entrance we recommend going into the mainline station and using the Underground entrance next to platform 19, as previously suggested.
Thanks for the update Nick,
I’d need the error number displayed on the gate to know what might have happened, though I doubt it’s connnected to the pick up of the refund. It is possible that some touch data was delayed getting to the central system or that there was a problem running the overnight process which caused the delay. Good that you’re now up to date.
Hi Michael,
I’ve created a new thread for this so that others might be able to see and comment.
Shop terminals should be a good place to try, though it obviously helps if they have ink. That is down to the shop owner though. Station ticket machines don’t display the card number in the same way that cash machines don’t display card details; it’s so someone can’t be looking over your shoulder and maybe take a pic on their phone.
Was Liverpool Street the Underground station or the mainline station?
I’ve messaged a friend who works for LU and their advice is to go to an Underground station and say to a member of staff in the ticket hall that you want to know the number so you can register it, can they get you a printout. They will need to go to what is called the ‘POM Room’ which houses amongst other things a ticket machine that can print journey history. That will have the number on.
My advice for success is to try and go at a quieter time, and keep the conversation simple, as above. Don’t go into a rant about the troubles you’ve been having as that is likely to make them switch off. Once you know the number then I strongly suggest registering the card online. You’ll need to know details of a recent journey so they know it’s your card. You will then be able to check journey history and probably have the ability to fill in the details of the missed touch so they can arrange the refund to be added next time you touch in.
As to how you get through barriers without the card registering; it is possible. You may have tailgated through with the person in front, or the person behind you may have opened the gates with their card. When it’s busy these things do sometimes happen.
Now, there are issues with staffing across the whole network. Covid is still very much around and people generally won’t be able to come to work if they are unwell. Some quieter stations are having to be shut due to lack of staff at present. However, if a station is open then there will be staff there and they will have access to the room they need to access the printer. But if it’s really busy then they may be unable to leave their area unstaffed.
I hope this helps, and I’d be interested to know how you get on.
Hi Emmet, (and thanks Chris)
Waterloo station is a real mess with several gatelines where it is not obvious what you are doing.
The first thing I need to clarify is what the green arrow means. It doesn’t mean ‘Entry’ but rather that the gate in front of you is set in the direction you are walking. That could be either ‘Entry’ or ‘Exit’.
Next up is the fact that Waterloo LU station is actually three different stations in one. You have the Waterloo and City line station which is connected easily to all the mainline station platforms. The problem here is that there isn’t room to put a gateline on the passageway to the actual platforms, so as Chris says, there are a couple of validators which aren’t brilliantly signed. This is what you should have touched which would have cancelled your same station exit and started a new journey.
From that area you then move along to the original Underground station serving the Bakerloo and Northern lines. You will go through gates there which I think is where you exited and got the same station exit. Also from that part of the station is a travelator taking you to the Jubilee line station and the entrances at the colonade.
In summary, I think you entered at the Jubilee line through the colonade, went down and along the travelator to the Bakerloo and Northern section, exited again and then went down to the Waterloo and City without touching the validators to put you back inside the system. Then at Bank you exited when not in the system hence the maximum journey charge. Chris is right about the resolution too; just call the helpdesk and explain that you got thouroughly confused at Waterloo when travelling to Bank. They’ll quickly check your journeys and arrange to refund the maximum fare.
In future I’d go into the mainline station from the street and then use the entrance to the Underground near platforms 17 and 18. Follow the signs for the Waterloo and City line there, but look out for the validators and touch one before going down to the actual platforms.
Hi Lee,
Sadly I think they will expect you to pay the fare to Euston if you go there. They do sometimes alter the fares if a station is unexpectedly closed, but not if the alternative is in zone 1.
Hi Lee,
That’s a missing routeing, sadly. It is available for Woodgrange Park (the station before Barking) so I think it’s an error. You’ll need to use either the Camden Town/Road or Kentish Town/West changes and touch the pink reader at Stratford to get the £1.80 off-peak fare. You could also email oysterenquiries(at)tfl.gov.uk and ask them to add the missing route, but don’t try to use it until it appears on the fare finder.
Hi Nick,
Sadly it is quite likely that they’ve changed something. Can you let me know the last date you received the refund for please?
Hi Chris,
I don’t think it has been reduced again. I’d say that you exceeded the time limit by a few seconds.
Hi Steve,
This is the response I got from TfL about registering international bank cards:
Due to not all non-UK bankcards complying with the required standards around security, particularly in relation to the new Strong Customer Authentication legislation which came in earlier this year, overseas customers may not be able to use their non-UK bank cards online. Once non-UK bankcards begin to adopt these new security measures, we hope to be able to allow these customers to register their cards, and therefore be able to check their journey history and apply for refunds more easily.
Hi Alan,
There is only one fare set for Euston NR to Putney NR so that is what you’ll be charged regardless of how you actually make the journey. Pink readers only inform the system of the route taken if the actual journey has a defined route via that point.
Cheers Gary,
You are able to top up Oyster at a ticket machine using a bank or credit card too, so you shouldn’t need to visit an ATM first. I’m with you on embracing contactless, but if individual trasactions are going to cost a set fee which can be combined into one transaction then I’d probably go for that.
As with many things there isn’t a clear answer. My understanding is that the FOI team are largely working from home. Many requests do require input from other parts of the organisation, and often require access to files which are currently in buildings not being staffed. Furthermore some of the operational areas are under a lot of stress and isolation is causing issues. You can’t drive a train from home!
Hi,
There seems to be a little misunderstanding here. If you have a travelcard then it is valid to use National Rail as well as the Underground within the zones covered. Charlton is in zone 3 so you’d need a zone 1-3 travelcard.
Alternatively, if you are using PAYG then the whole journey will be charged as one from Charlton to your zone 2 destination as long as you don’t take longer than 20 minutes between touching out at London Bridge NR and touching back in at London Bridge LU.
Something similar has been happening to me if I travel between zones 1-8 in the peak. I expect the cap to be £17 but it’s £16.30 using contactless.
Contactless often does this. It’ll be great when Oyster works the same way.
Thanks for the update, David. Good to know the out and back journey worked.
And yes, going back to Finsbury Park before continuing to Moorgate would have worked correctly. I agree it’s a pain to have to work around the quirks, although as I’ve said earlier, Finsbury Park has special problems going back to FCC days, and the botch job is potentially as much to do with government franchise commitments not taking account of the bigger picture at the station.
Hi Oliver,
Because you’re using contactless the back office has converted that to a zone 1-2 cap at £7.20 and a zone 3-4 peak extension fare at £1.70. If that’s the way you regularly travel then I’d continue using contactless.
I could certainly support the idea of a reduced charge at weekends.
One of the big problems I have with vehicle recognition schemes generally (the Dartford Crossing is the same) is that there doesn’t seem to be a way of telling whether you’ve avoided paying if you entered/exited the zone at about the charge boundary times. For this reason I’m not sure how successful splitting the fee on a weekday might be. I do get the data protection issues, but once logged in to your own account I think they should allow you to see times that your vehicle plates were captured.
Some interesting thoughts. I’ve unearthed this article where the idea was floated six years ago. Personally I don’t think it’s a starter, but who knows.
Not touching in at 7/8 is complicated as there are usual staff there and I’ll probably be rushing a bit to catch a train and not want to go through this history with them when they ask why I didn’t touch in
You should be able to touch in again, so no need to explain the story.
Hi David,
Thanks for that. I’ve now worked it all out.
Firstly, the £3.75 is the railcard discounted off-peak incomplete journey which was charged because you touched out at 0930. Before 0927 it would be the full adult incomplete journey.
Now, the main problem is actually not down to the EOSI, but instead it’s the continuation exit marker on the validators in the subway. As I mentioned, the validators are part of the Underground station, which doesn’t matter normally, but does cause an issue in this case. Continuation exit works within the maximum journey time from the origin station. Weekdays, that is 100 minutes for a zone 5 to zone 2 journey. So, your touch in at platforms 7/8 is 90 minutes after the touch in at New Barnet and platforms 7/8 are part of the National Rail station so the system treats your journey as continuing. By the time you get back to New Barnet you’ve long exceeded the 30 minutes allowed for a here-to-here journey so it charges an incomplete journey instead.
So, to stop this happening you need to first touch in on the validators by platforms 1/2. As this is the same station as you exited the continuation exit marker will expire after 15 minutes, but with the EOSI you need to leave 30 minutes. You can still touch in on the gates to platforms 7/8 if you need to because the continuation entry setting will allow that.
I’m going to pass this over to my contact at TfL to see if anything else can be done, but in the meantime I’d be grateful to know whether touching the validator first does cure the problem.
Hi David,
OK, Finsbury Park is a particular problem at the moment thanks to the coronavirus one-way system and the special setting on the gates to platforms 7/8.
The station has what’s known as an EOSI set which means that an attempt to touch in within 45 minutes of a touch out will result in the two journeys being combined. This is needed because the validators at the exit from platforms 1/2 are actually part of the Underground station even though most people using them are Great Northern passengers. The journey needs to be joined so that when people change to the Underground (after walking round to the other entrance) they are not overcharged. Unfortunately it does cause a problem if the return journey starts in under 30 minutes after arrival.
Now, in normal times it is possible to get from the Underground to National Rail without touching out. To avoid problems the gates to platforms 7/8 are set to continuation entry which means that if you are already in the system you will be allowed through. This touch is recorded as a pink reader because it is a single intermediate touch. All this came about because of the lack of coordination between TfL and First Capital Connect. It will only be resolved when gates are installed at the bus station entrance to the National Rail station so that the whole station is gated.
So, when you were charged an incomplete journey it was because you tried to touch in too early for the EOSI and you ended up with a circular here-to-here journey from your Great Northern station. I don’t know why you were undercharged on the most recent journey, but I’d keep the pennies as compensation for the inconvenience with other journeys. If you can copy the expanded journey history here then I’d be interested to see what happened.
Finally, First Capital Connect no longer exist. The National Rail station is run by Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR).
Hi Chris,
Thanks for raising this again. It’ll be useful to get other such issues with Elephant & Castle NR together in one place.
One thing I am certain is that pink readers will never be sited in zone 1. A pink reader is designed to offer a cheaper fare and thus there is no compulsion to touch one. If you don’t and are overcharged then you won’t get a refund. Whilst I realise that a pink reader at Blackfriars would give you a cheaper fare at times, most people would be charged more. If TfL/SE/DfT decide that different fares are required then the via zone 1 option will become the default.
I for one will be very pleased if they ever put pink readers at Peckham Rye. I’ve a longstanding irritation that Sidcup and Woolwich line stations to places like Norwood Junction default to via zone 1 but Bexleyheath line stations default to avoiding zone 1 because of the direct Victoria services. Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill have always been mentioned on my route validators page as missing.
