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They are zone to zone within zones 1-9, but they still need to know which stations were used. OSIs are only set between certain stations, otherwise the system gets too complicated.
Thanks for this. I did some testing ages ago, but never finished what I wanted to check as something came up.
As for the year nearly up – it’s been anounced that the facility will continue until May 26th, at least. That was covered in the fare revision post undwer latest news.
Hi,
If you touch in without having touched out it may well charge you an incomplete journey. You should be able to fill that in, but only up to 3 times a month. It’s also not certain that the system will join the journeys together again automatically. If you head to Ladywell it will definitely be charged as two journeys.
Have you considered getting a zone 2-5 travelcard?
Hi Adam,
You need to either touch at both stations or neither. If you only touch at one then you are likely to get an incomplete journey, and may also be in trouble if you are inspected while the system thinks you are out.
Following on from that, if the touches are needed to prove the route then you must touch at both stations.
TfL are not as to blame as you seem to make out. Fares beyond West Drayton are set by GWR. This March it is the fares within zones 1-6 which will rise as the NR (GWR) set fares are all frozen. If GWR/SWR asked for an OSI at Windsor and priced fares accordingly then TfL would set it up. Travelcards with validity in zone 6 are available to use on the Elizabeth line trains to Heathrow. That is how people making a return journey aren’t penalised with the fare grab being aimed at tourists making a single journey.
Now that the new revenue contract has been settled I am hopeful that we’ll finally get some movement on discounts with contactless. As I understand it, the main sticking point is NR needing to know that a railcard is attached so they can ask to see it. Adding an extra list to the inspection devices makes it not an off-the-shelf blacklist/whitelist application, and clearly nothing can be written to the bank card.
I’ll not offer any defence on delay repay, other than it will have been agreed with the DfT when signing the contracts.
This has opened up a huge can of worms.
The first thing to note is that there is no difference between fares from Richmond Underground and Richmond (London) Rail stations. It’s all one station but TfL have this obsession with showing multiple instances of stations if they have more than one mode.
The next thing is that there is no out-of-station interchange in Windsor. So far none have been set up beyond zone 6, although issues with intermediate gatelines mean that we should see internal OSIs at Stevenage and Welwyn Garden City soon. This explains why your via Windsor journey was split into two – it was actually two journeys according to TfL.
West Drayton to Reading and branches were the last contactless extensions set up before project Oval, as I mentioned above, while Feltham to Windsor is very much part of Oval. However, given that there is no OSI in Windsor we can say that fares between Richmond and Slough are set up differently and there’s a reasonable chance that National Rail and TfL won’t show the same fare.
We can get some clues by looking at my fare finder (driven by TfL open data) because I add zonal coverage for journeys set up before Oval. The default route for Richmond to Slough is zones 3-16 which as suggested means District via Turnham Green to Ealing Broadway. The alternative routes involve taking SWR to South London terminals or Vauxhall or Queenstown Road Battersea and then taking various Underground lines to Paddington. Note that the change between Underground and National Rail at Paddington does not trigger the alternative route, which leads us onto …
About that can of worms. The National Rail journey planner thinks Richmond to Willesden Junction on Overground, then Overground/Bakerloo to Paddington with an optional change at Queens Park, then GWR to Slough is the second best option after Windsor. Because the OSI between Paddington LU and Paddington NR is not used in the fare setting, the fare charged will be the default fare. Indeed, it’s possible to do it without passing through a gateline because the Bakerloo line and Elizabeth line stations at Paddington are linked inside the paid area.
In summary, I’ve no idea where National Rail is getting the £9.70 fare from. You will be charged according to the TfL driven fare finders either £10.20 via South London terminals, £8.70 if you make two journeys via Windsor, or £4.50 via any other route (but don’t leave the PAYG area via Ascot and Reading).
Hi Michael,
There are two trains a day direct between Battersea Park and other Windrush line stations towards Dalston Junction. These are run to retain route knowledge for drivers for when engineering works close the line to Clapham Junction. At all other times you need to use a Southern service to Clapham Junction before picking up the Windrush line, so the fares charged reflect that reality. There is no way for the Oyster system to detect that you’ve taken the direct route.
I’ve got to admit that that result is a lot clearer than I thought. It is possible that the fares team at TfL who will have helped to create the results for that request may now be looking at the outcome. Hopefully contacting your MP might increase the pressure to do something.
I’m still not convinced that they will create flows for the diversion route in the fares table, but they may look to make adjustments afterwards following a weekend when the diversion is in place. It may depend on how many of the overcharges were actually mitigated by reaching a cap anyway.
I’ve got to hand it to you for persevering with this issue.
Hi Adam,
There is only one fare set between Kentish Town and Luton as that comes under the Project Oval setting. The fares are cheaper than from St Pancras, so as long as you adhere to any interchange times you should get that fare via St Pancras as well.
With St Albans (or Luton Airport Parkway) it will depend on whether the gates for the EMR platforms trigger the expensive route or if it’s just the Underground barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras. The Thameslink fast trains are not much slower than EMR and it’s a longer walk at St Pancras, so I’d probably stick to them for certainty.
Yes, caps and travelcards are all frozen as far as I can see. I’m trying to catch up with various things and will write a bit more about the fares change soon.
Hi Michael,
It should be noted that the increased fares on TfL routes are still less than the equivalent fares on NR routes, even though the latter have been frozen. It should also be noted that the application of small percentages rounded up to the next 10p mean that all NR short journey fares have risen significantly above inflation since 2015. See https://oysterfares.com/extortionate-national-rail-fare-increases/ for more details.
As for political pressure, perhaps contact your London Assembly member. I’m not convinced that there will be much appetite to do anything as it is all tied in with funding settlements with the government. They might be persuaded to consider asking for zone 2-6 and 2-9 caps again – a move I would certainly support. You could also try contacting your MP.
Just to add further insight. The only alternative route covers using the Underground in zone 1, so maybe Elephant & Castle to Blackfriars then District to Victoria then East Croydon. As you aren’t doing that you are charged the default route/fare which is only zones 2-5. In terms of the change at Blackfriars, I’d recommend being at the back of the train heading into Blackfriars, use the south of the river subway between platforms as there are no gates and then be at the front of the train for exit at East Croydon.
Thanks for letting us know it worked. The discount can’t be retrospectively added, but it will change the cap that’s applied if you reach it, so the most you’d have paid for that day would be the discounted cap. Obviously not much consolation if you didn’t reach the cap, but it’ll definitely work from now on. Final point, whenever you renew the railcard you need to get the discount re-applied as it stops when the expiry date of your current card is reached.
I’m not quite sure why the forum software decided that your last post was spam, but I’ve restored it now.
To be honest, I’m not that surprised by their response. I don’t think they really want to set fares that are only possible on occasional days in a year. I’m also not convinced that setting an emergency OSI on its own will have the desired effect.
The South Hampstead to Swiss Cottage issue is part of a different problem, showing interchanges that don’t join journeys together on the tube map and carriage diagrams. I’m about to request some information about usage of four of those pairs, along with a pair that isn’t shown on the map but is walkable in about 5 minutes. Watch this space for more.
Hi Tracey,
This must be so frustrating. I believe there may be some issues with adding cards using TfL Go. Have you tried logging into the TfL website and adding the card there? I’ve certainly never had any problems adding a new card that way. It is correct that you need to have made a journey to be able to add the card to an account.
What I would suggest straight away is that you note down anything that was said when you had the railcard added. What was the password you had to set up? Was it the answer to a memorable question? Obviously don’t type those details on here, but you might need to remember them down the line.
Thanks for those links.
The first point to note is that fares on the line to Reading and associated branches were set before Project Oval. This means that the fares data sent to TfL does not come directly from the NR fares database. It looks like GWR have increased some of the off-peak fares but this hasn’t been reflected in the TfL database. This was probably at the September fares change where off-peak caps were all increased by GWR. I’m confident that the fare shown by the fare finder is what will be charged.
The Marlow issue is slightly different because the £22.00 fare is not tagged as being based on the contactless fare. I don’t know why the NR journey planner is not using the contactless fare when a fast train is being used. I’ll ask the question.
Hi,
Can you give me a link to where you’re seeing those National Rail fares. As far as contactless is concerned there is no difference between GWR and EL. The fares shown in fare finders driven by TfL open data are the ones that you should be charged by the PAYG system.
Hi Jonathan,
That’s an interesting conundrum. I’m surprised TfL can’t/won’t stop the card even if it has a negative balance. Do you know whether the card had a deposit on it? If it did then you probably don’t owe TfL anything. If you haven’t already called the helpdesk then I would do so, and ask them exactly what TfL would like you to do. They’ll probably say that nothing can be done, but ask for a call reference and the person’s name, and that’s as much as you can do.
Yes, I did. Beyond the Oyster zones the times allowed can get even longer, though they no longer relate to zones. The times for each journey are shown on the fare finder. I’ve put a comment on that video. Thanks for pointing me in the direction of it.
I think Caterham to Tattenham Corner is probably the longest single zone journey outside of zones 1-2. I’m not sure how many people actually want to do it. When I last checked this many years ago it was posssible within about an hour, but timetables have probably changed since then.
TfL do increase the time allowed for certain journeys where it isn’t possible to complete it in the standard time allowed. If they get reports of problems then they will likely look at increasing the time allowed, which is why I’m not convinced that many people actually make the journey, if any.
If you do make the journey and it takes longer than 70 minutes then you’ll be charged two incomplete journeys. When you call the helpdesk they will refund all but the single zone charge, and it may kickstart a review.
Hi Miura,
Banbury to London Underground zone 1 off-peak return is code WM which is unrestricted in the evening peak. It should be possible to view restrictions just before purchase online or at a ticket machine.
You’re not going mad. The ticket should include a link to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/b1/ on the National Rail website which confirms that it is only not valid between 0430-0929 on weekdays. Please complain to the companies who have told you otherwise.
Also, if you have an Oyster card with your 16-25 railcard attached then the zone 1-6 off-peak cap is just £10.85, and that will be enforced throughout the afternoon peak without you worrying about it. Plus, if Harrow is the furthest out you go (ie zone 5) then the cap reduces to £10.15. It goes down to just £5.90 if all travel is just in zones 1-2.
I reported this issue to TfL and with cooperation from Nick it has been fixed over the holiday period. Thanks for reporting it.
I must admit, Feathers, that I share your concern. However, if these ‘interchanges’ are indeed being shown on car line diagrams then I think that potentially changes things. I’m intending making some requests later in the month and will include this case along with some others when I do.
