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I don’t know why Freedom passes don’t join journeys together with OSIs. I presume it’s to do with everything being free and perhaps wanting a simpler journey history interface on the photocard site. It’s the same with 60+ Oysters as well. I’m not aware that any checking of journey history goes on with freedom passes. If you were caught between Enfield Lock and Cheshunt then it would be a penalty fare. I guess they could look further into a persons history to see if it was a regular thing, but at the end of the day the pass isn’t valid that way and if you abuse it then you deserve what you get. I wouldn’t risk it myself.
As for Gatwick, you are following the rules if you touch in at the start and out at the end of your journey and stay within the Oyster PAYG area. If you were using PAYG throughout then you’d almost certainly exceed the time allowed for the journey. If you genuinely haven’t left railway premises throughout then you probably are legal, but if checked on a London bound train after leaving Gatwick then I would probably expect some questions.
I’ll send you an email in a minute because I’m genuinely interested in any information you have about the RID devices.
Hi kijeta,
Yes, there are some anomalies at the edges of the Oyster area. The train companies accept that anyone using Oyster in the correct way will be charged according to the fare finder, so it’s not really a grey area. If a travelcard covers the zones shown on my fare finder for the journey made then no extra will be deducted.
In your specific examples, Ewell East to West is described as being a zone 3-6 journey, so a travelcard (on Oyster) would be valid to travel via Epsom with no extra charge. A paper travelcard would not be valid, but I prefer to view that as a benefit of using Oyster. Slade Green to Crayford is well known to me and the same applies, except that there are direct trains between the two which stay within zone 6. If you do travel via Dartford then the same fare would be charged as that is the zonal coverage for that journey.
Did you mean Turkey Street to Enfield Lock via Cheshunt? In that scenario the single fare is described as zones 6-8, so you would be charged extra if you had a zone 1-6 travelcard. If you want to stay within the six zones then you need to travel via Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters using the Victoria line. It is also possible to buy a paper zones 1-9 travelcard by specifying the origin station as Amersham or Brentwood.
In terms of the Freedom Pass or 60+ Oyster card you do need to stay within their specific areas. Whilst you would get away with touching in at Ewell East and out at Ewell West, if an inspector checked your card en-route then you would be treated as having no ticket. Dartford has historically always been in the Freedom Pass area, so that isn’t a problem. Cheshunt is valid on a Freedom Pass as long as you use the Overground services.
Epsom was only added to the Oyster system in the last 3-4 years. Before that it was completely outside. As I’ll be explaining properly soon, Epsom was never supposed to be officially in zone 9, but technically it was put there to enable capping of some sort when Oyster was rolled out there.
Yes indeed, you are always valid with an Oyster card within the Oyster area.
There is an OSI between Waterloo and Waterloo East, so that is pretty much the best example for that fare.
When the Oyster fares were originally set up for the 2010 expansion of PAYG there were a lot of redundant routes put in just in case. In those days pretty much all Oyster fares were solely within zones 1-9 (only Watford Junction and Grays existed beyond that). I agree that in this specific example routes going beyond Wimbledon are pretty pointless. If someone really did want to go from West to East they would probably buy a ticket via Epsom, or take the bus.
Hi JR,
The Elizabeth line core is actually defined as Paddington to Stratford/Abbey Wood. However, there are a number of issues which determine whether the mixed mode will apply to parts of the core.
Taking the Canary Wharf example first. Oakleigh Park to Abbey Wood is historically defined as NR only taking Oakleigh Park to Highbury & Islington to New Cross to Abbey Wood. This was actually a success of this site back in the day. Today you are likely to use the EL from Moorgate/Liverpool Street, but you don’t have to and they can’t tell if you have, so NR fares still apply. It’s likely that they decided that intermediate stations between Liverpool Street and Abbey Wood should also have just NR fares to avoid the situation where travelling further on the same train costs less.
As for Stratford, I’m puzzled. That can also be done only on NR by walking along the EL platforms to Liverpool Street and using a Greater Anglia train. It might be worth asking TfL whether they agree that this counts as an option avoiding any of the EL core. You could also make the journey changing at Highbury & Islington and avoid zone 1 altogether, thus getting an even cheaper fare.
Hi JR,
Through fares using both old NR and LU/DLR are only more expensive if the journey includes travel in zone 1. If not, the same fares as just old NR are charged. Old means late adopting routes that joined in Jan 2010 (eg Southeastern) as opposed to routes that charged TfL fares before then (eg c2c).
Hi Talster,
Yes, Box Hill and Westhumble was added to the stations accepting PAYG with contactless in December 2025. If there are no gates at that station then there will be validators, usually positioned either side of each exit. I’ve not been there personally.
Frustratingly I’m still waiting for the answer to an edge case question before publishing the full story. You are correct that GTR didn’t feel the need to publicise the changes (they have form for this, remember Gatwick?).
Hi Phil,
I missed the 60+ in the title originally, so this isn’t the issue I thought. It is still an issue, and maybe your history might help resolving it, but it is specific to 60+ Oysters where no fares are actually charged.
Paddington to Whitton is allowed 1 hour 50 minutes on weekdays so you just exceeded that time, hence it showing two journeys. Validators don’t know which way you’re going, so if you’ve timed out it will always start a new journey. Did your daughter make the same journey on a paid card? If so she’ll need to get it adjusted.
Hi Phil,
Can you provide further details, please. The rough time you touched out and in again, plus your journey history as it currently shows. TfL can’t see a fault at the moment.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks Phil,
I’m sure that the touches will catch up at some point, hopefully before contactless users are charged a maximum fare. It does sometimes get stuck, but the data is never lost and will be transferred when the connection is fixed.
Hi Richard,
Thanks for this. It is indeed a shocking reply from the MD, however, the act of passing the details to the revenue team will almost certainly have resulted in a cordial meeting to refocus the mind of the MD.
Do let me know if you have any further issues.
Hi Phil,
Can you clarify, were you charged the correct fares and did the gates open without human intervention?
If yes then it just means there’s a delay transmitting the gateline data to the central system. I’ll raise it anyway.
Apologies, I missed this thread originally.
The Euston (LU) fare is an error, it should be £11.90. It’s unlikely to get corrected before next March though.
Simon,
Yes, and yes (for the last leg back from St Pancras). It’s a 60+ so used the Interrail on Wednesday morning.
Hi Matthew,
This does seem like a strange one. When you transfer products from one Oyster card to another the original one gets cancelled. The card itself still appears active but the next time it is touched in on a journey it will be physically cancelled. However, the central system should know that it’s been cancelled and not allow anything further to be processed against the card.
I can’t see what rule you might have broken though. You have pointed out the three travelcards to them which should have raised alarm bells. And if they’ve refunded the travelcard from the wrong card then that is down to them. Also, an Oyster card is not supposed to be able to hold more than £90 in credit, but I guess it might allow it if the top-up is coming from a transfer.
What you do now is up to your conscience, really. When the travelcards expire the card will start using the PAYG balance.
Hi Colin,
I added a comment to a post on Nextdoor about this very query, though I can’t now find it. Was it you asking originally?
Looking at your questions, have you tried the fare finder on this site? That tells you which zones are covered for every Oyster journey (and some older contactless only ones too). Within zones 1-9 there are a number of fare scales, although only 3 relate to journeys south of the river. Overground is counted as National Rail if the whole journey is on National Rail, but it’s also counted as TfL if the whole journey is on TfL operated routes (or those like c2c which use Underground fares). The late adopting NR routes (Jan 2010) charge their own scale if any of the journey is one one of those routes. Additionally there is a mixed mode premium charged on top of the NR rate if the journey goes into zone 1, whether or not the TfL bit was in zone 1 or not. The Elizabeth line is more complicated. The core section between Paddington and Abbey Wood is treated like a tube line when combined with older NR routes, but the bits to Brentwood and West Drayton are also National Rail.
So, Plumstead to Greenwich to Lewisham is the same fare as Plumstead to Lewisham via Blackheath. When you start at Brixton LU you are already on LU and to get to Plumstead is defined as going through zone 1. It is possible to avoid zone 1 (Brixton – Stockwell – Clapham North (walk) Clapham High Street – Peckham Rye – Lewisham – Plumstead) but I guess that is deemed too many changes so no-one would do it. From Brixton NR you can go Brixton – Kent House (walk) Clock House – Lewisham – Plumstead, and I think that is likely to be the default route.
As things currently stand, yes. You touch in at the start and touch out at the end using any intermediate gatelines as required. The system will look at your whole journey and charge the appropriate fare given any route indications.
If appropriate you can also go via Kings Cross and St Pancras. Just bear in mind that PAYG is NOT valid on LNER services, so don’t try and sneak on one of the set down only stoppers.
A quick look in the fares finder shows Oyster Caps cheaper than Contactless ones from both Epsom and Cuffley…
Which is pretty much what I said. I’ve asked questions of GTR and am waiting for a response.
Yes, in very limited cases. I’m waiting for feedback from GTR at the moment and will soon be publishing full details. There are 12 stations involved and in almost every case the contactless cap is cheaper. Epsom is by far the most affected, along with Cuffley to a slightly lesser extent. Watch this site/space.
Hi kt1974,
I can probably provide sensible answers to some of those questions if you can copy and paste your journey history in a reply. Without specifics I can’t really help.
Will I get in trouble for all my theoretically Incomplete Journeys?
It depends. If you touch in within your zones and have a ticket covering your journey beyond your zones then, no. I really need specifics of journeys made, touches made and other tickets held.Will TfL ever untangle the fare mess?
They’d love to untangle it, you need to lobby your MP.Will we be allowed to buy Boundary Zone tickets online or at (all) machines?
Online is already possible by using https://tickets.railforums.co.uk and use the Advanced options to say what kind of travelcard you have.Will the whole South East ever be Oyster-compatible?
No.Will the absurdity of different fares and different definitions of off-peak depending on which gates you use at the same station ever be untangled?
Can you expand with an example or examples and I’ll try to answer.Hi Michael,
The answer is shown on the fare finder when searching for a fare with Epsom at the outer end. The contactless daily caps are more expensive.
It’s a good question. I will put it to my contact at GTR after the bank holiday.
When Epsom first got added to Oyster I was assured by GTR that zone 1-9 travelcards would be valid there. They don’t work the gates, but staff have definitely let people through manually. The contactless caps changed when PAYG was extended to Dorking last year. I’ll answer properly when I hear back.
