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Hi Martin,
I would imagine so, yes. I was somewhat surprised to see this news, then I remembered what was happening in May.
Hi Nick,
The system did change a while back because of GDPR concerns over the forms used in shops being returned to the central office. It’s now not possible to record registration on the card unless it is done when the card is purchased online and sent to you.
I’m fairly certain that the process of adding the card to an account is now the same as registering it, so I wonder if the card was actually registered before. I’m very certain that you can only attach a card to one account, so yes it will be a problem if she’s trying to add it to hers.
I think the best course of action here is to contact the helpdesk and ask them to double check everything. They may need you to be there at the same time if the card has to be uncoupled from your account. I hope they manage to sort it out.
Hi Bryan,
That’s certainly a comprehensive submission. Well done.
I did actually realise after posting that West Hampstead involved a Jubilee train in addition to the Met, although the interchange at Wembley Park involves no more than crossing an island platform so it’s not onerous. All three interchanges (Kilburn/West Hampstead/Finchley Road) are treated identically which is why the JP will sometimes suggest cutting out the Jubilee by using Finchley Road.
My only hesitation would be mentioning the hokey-cokey. Whilst it does work in some cases, it can often have unintended consequences. In this particular case there are no fares defined for Kenton to Harrow-on-the-Hill so I’m not sure what would be charged for that leg. New Malden to Northwick Park defaults to via zone 1. If there is time it might be better just to amble slowly and let the OSI expire after 20 minutes. However, I don’t think that one thing in your otherwise excellent case will make a difference.
Please do update us when you hear back.
Hi JG,
Yes, modern tech often has rules with unintended consequences. The wording of that error message suggests that it has come from the banking system, rather than TfL taking decisions unilaterally. This doesn’t help you though. SCA is secure customer authentication which is applied in cases where the card is not present when processing the transaction.
So, looking at your options:
1) As you’d be using the card in person I’d hope that it should work.
2) TOC smartcards will not handle extension fares. Either they have a travelcard loaded which operates the gates within the appropriate zones, or they have a PAYG facility which is limited to their own services.
3) This would work, but you’d lose the gold card benefits in the interim.I can’t think of any other options right now.
Hi Miles,
Thanks for that link. I’m 99.99% certain that the general times per zone used hasn’t changed since the feature was introduced back in 2010 (IIRC). Initially some values which the formula says should be a multiple of odd minutes were rounded incorrectly, but that was fixed ages ago. The other change was the allowance for journeys in zones 1-4, but this is catered for by using a different multiplier on the journeys involved. There are indeed some specific journeys that have a higher multiplier than the zones crossed would indicate because customers have complained that it wasn’t posssible to make valid on-time journeys without falling foul of the limit.
I also believe that where two or more routes exist for a journey the same multiplier is used based on the most number of zones. Thus Heathrow to Upminster on the District line is always classed as 11 zones, even if zone 1 is avoided. This makes sense in that the avoiding zone 1 route will usually take longer. Also, if the end station is dual zoned I understand that the reverse to fare charging takes place and the extra zone is added in to the multiplier. Thus Hatton Cross to Upminster is still 11 zones. I haven’t had official confirmation of this, but both measures make sense.
I can also understand the TOCs concerns about longer distance journeys. The ‘rules’ suggest that Gatwick to zone 1 ought to be 14 zones which means over 3 hours would be allowed. I’d have no problem with that figure being reduced as it’s clearly nonsensical. If it hasn’t been reduced I can equally understand why it would be deemed desirable to keep the data hidden. There has been no public statement as to how contactless PAYG maximum journey times are calculated, but by their nature this is done in the back-office so there could be a completely different set of rules.
The big problem that I have with the current situation is that when MJTs are exceeded for reasons outside the control of the passenger, they are hit with a financial penalty which then needs to be reversed. Because of this I believe that greater transparency is required.
Hi Matthieu,
Ah yes, I see how that could be confusing. I’ll have a think about how to make that clearer on here.
Travelcard vs caps is a do the maths thing I’m afraid. If you’re travelling before 0930 and going into or via zone 1 then the discounted travelcard is probably better. If you avoid zone 1 and/or only travel after 0930 then it’s unclear which is better.
And Gatwick is the same for railcard fares too. Even the 16-18 zip card isn’t as good if you have a 16-17 Saver card for National Rail, whereas it used to make quite a difference.
Hi Matthieu,
Yes, the railcard discounted Oysters have an off-peak cap which is £5.30 for zones 1-2. This includes all travel after 0930, including the afternoon peak.
Hi Robert,
The two minutes was thought to apply when using validators at a station, but it turns out it’s ok, unless the validator has continuation exit applied (West Drayton doesn’t). If you use the same validator then you need to wait 30 seconds between touches, but if there are two validators you can use a different one to touch back in immediately.
As Alan alluded to, PAYG fares beyond zone 6 are designed as a convenience and to match the paper ticket pricing for anytime and off-peak return tickets. There are some big savings to be made if you step back a train at West Drayton, but the pain is that you have to use the slow trains.
On the main question, Leighton Buzzard to Kensal Green is not valid via Euston because it would undercut the fare to Euston itself.
If you must go via Euston then I agree that an Anytime return LBZ-EUS plus two contactless fares is cheaper than a travelcard from LBZ, especially since contra-peak travel between EUS and KNL is off-peak.
Hi Michael,
There are fewer scales when it comes to extension fares, so you’ve been charged at the TfL-LU rate. You’d only be charged more if the journey was on the NR or NR-T scales.
Hi Michael,
Within zones 1-6 the price of travelcards is generally more than the caps as a way of persuading people to use PAYG. This means you only pay for what you do which often works out less than a travelcard. If you do exceed the cap you’re still better off. Beyond the zones the caps are set at the current day travelcard prices because using PAYG is seen as a convenience rather than a cheaper option.
At the moment you can’t add railcard discounts to contactless PAYG, and there’s a question mark over whether the Network Railcard will be possible when TfL introduce a card to allow discounts. The problem is the minimum fare on weekdays.
There have always been maximum journey time restrictions when using PAYG. Anyone making a normal journey will not be affected by this unless a problem occurs en route. Enthusiasts can sometimes fall foul when they spend longer in the system than usual.
PAYG prices and caps from Slough are valid on both Elizabeth line and GWR.
Alan: There is no afternoon peak on off-peak caps either. The single fares may be higher, but they’re still limited by the off-peak cap.
Adding to what Feathers said, I think most people in Vauxhall wanting Putney would use National Rail as it’s one train and reasonably frequent. As to your comment about £2.80 vs £1.90, that is indeed the consequence of using National Rail as part of the journey.
I suspect space is a limiting factor. At many stations the validators are actually on the pavement outside, or just inside a gate which isn’t wide enough for two directional flows.
I’m very much in agreement, Michael. Signage at many stations leaves a lot to be desired. I’m not convinced different readers for entry and exit would work necessarily. It would be another chance for things to go wrong if someone didn’t have time or space to read the labels. It would work where there are clear lanes for each direction, but that just isn’t the case in most places in London. Also, prominent signage can be an issue in crowds where there isn’t enough room.
However, this particular situation is a serious issue, given that people could be reported for prosecution after doing the right thing. TfL are aware and I hope to have a swift update.
As stated, the answer is sadly no. If you are returning from the same station you went to, would a railcard discounted return ticket not be cheaper than two singles?
Thanks Feathers, Hi Michael,
Yes to (a). If there is a TfL bus nearby then touching in on that will close the earlier rail journey. As you have a travelcard the bus won’t be charged.
Otherwise, if you touch a validator within the maximum journey time from the start of the open journey it will be treated as the end of that journey and charged accordingly.
Just to back up Feathers latest comment, as long as you are touched in at the time of an inspection there will be no problem. The Oyster system rules stipulate that you must touch in at the start of each journey and touch out at the end. Providing you do that the correct fare will be calculated by the system.
Hi Alan,
I haven’t got a definitive answer, but I’d be amazed if the decision wasn’t made at time of touch in in both cases. Indeed the night tube probably inherits maximum journey time from the previous evening unless you touch in after 0430.
“Best get it done before the Day Travelcard is withdrawn ????”
Will still be here until Jan 2024 at the earliest.
Hi BadenBaden,
If you travel from Gatwick to London and then jaunt around zones 1-2 then the most you’ll pay is the zone 1-2 cap (£8.10) plus the single fare from Gatwick. So £17.60. It might be fractionally lower, but that’s the most.
If you haven’t got much luggage and don’t mind going up and down a ramp at East Croydon then that can be reduced to Gatwick to East Croydon* £3.70, zone 3-5 extension* £3.00 and the zone 1-2 cap of £8.10, total £14.80. You just need to get out at East Croydon, touch out and back in again, then get the next train to London. *Note that slightly higher fares apply between 1600-1900 from Gatwick.
It’s not ideal, I agree, but I think the only calculations so far programmed in are for full adult fares. It is mentioned in a way on: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/pay-as-you-go-caps
Weekly cap
A weekly cap limits how much you pay for all your journeys in a fixed Monday to Sunday period. It works using adult rate pay as you go on contactless (card or device) or Oyster.
Hi YearOfTheBusOyster,
Sadly there are a lot of misconceptions in this post, some from TfL staff who really ought to know better.
So, the first thing to point out is that only adult Oyster cards with no discount entitlement go through the back office process overnight. This means that you won’t get a refund, sadly. It also means that sometimes it is cheaper to get a normal ticket with the railcard.
Helpline staff really ought to be aware that both Oyster and contactless charge extension fares, albeit that the Oyster ones are only calculated overnight. They also ought to know that Grays is not in zone 9 and that the caps are more expensive.
I can, however, explain how the charges were arrived at.
The first £6 counted towards the Anytime cap only.
The 2x £1.75 counted towards the Anytime and off-peak caps (and the bus cap, though that’s irrelevant here).
At this point the Anytime total was £9.50, just short of the £9.60 Anytime cap.
The £9.60 counted towards the Anytime and off-peak caps, but now they are the Grays ones of £28.60 and £14.05.
Finally the 95p took the off-peak travel up to £14.05 which was the off-peak cap.I hope this helps a bit.
Thanks for that. I’m not surprised they couldn’t work out what was happening. I’m not sure I know why the evening maximum fare was only £4.80 because it’s usually £6.40 off-peak. I also think the touch on the validator at Farringdon may be confusing things because that should have been part of the main journey. Anyway, you are correct that you should have been capped, so just ask them to refund the rest down to the cap.
Moving forward, you don’t need to touch the validators when changing at Farringdon if you are making a PAYG journey. They only need to be used if the Thaneslink journey is using a paper ticket and you are starting/ending a PAYG journey at Farringdon. The signage is awful in that respect.
I hope you get it sorted out.
Edit. I’ve just noticed you spent 9 minutes at Farringdon, so probably went out of the gates, but if you are just changing and don’t need to go through both sets of gates then you don’t need to touch.
