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Hi Peter,
As others have said, the only way to do it without getting off is to either use a paper ticket the whole way, or use a boundary of zone to Slough ticket in conjunction with a travelcard.
The Oyster system is not designed to fully integrate with the wider National Rail network.
Hi Michael,
I perhaps need to make the list a little clearer, but it’s quite a complicated combination of situations at Paddington. The OSIs between Lancaster Gate and Paddington are valid at the NR upstairs station and at the Elizabeth line entrance. It’s not valid at the Underground entrances, although if you access the Underground via the Elizabeth line then it will work.
Hi Tony,
PAYG fares from Iver and beyond are all set by GWR. It does appear that something may have gone wrong here. Do you have any journey history from before and after the fares change to demonstrate what is happening? You may need to contact GWR and ask them why it’s gone up so much.
As for the daily cap, that is something which is very opaque and I’m still trying to get to the bottom of how it is applied. It looks like the combination of a zonal cap (eg 1-6) plus extension fares has lowered it from what was expected.
Hi Michael,
The somewhat clumsy add-on of different fares for Anglia, at the insistance of the DfT, causes quite a few anomalies. I’m considering dropping the 7-9 rows from the table because it’s notoriously difficult to describe the permutations succinctly. One of the biggest issues is whether NR or Ang takes precedence. One of the flows I use to create the table (Cricklewood to Brentwood) has changed a year ago.
As to your issues, In the case of Dartford to Brentwood (which is actually 3-9) I think the fact that Dartford is beyond zones 1-6 is trumping the Anglia fares. North Dulwich isn’t outside zones 1-6 and so is subject to the Anglia fares. Chesham (and Amersham) to Cheshunt is treated differently because the expensive end is Cheshunt in zone 8. Anglia fares are set for zones 7-8 for Theobalds Grove, Waltham Cross and Cheshunt, and zone 9 is just for Brentwood.
I hope that helps.
Hi,
You’ve touched on the subject which is occupying my time at present, namely understanding PAYG cap extension fares on contactless. I’ve been waiting for a response from GWR which has just come in and I’m about to write up the story so far. I am also intending to involve London Travelwatch, because the process is far from transparent. I believe it should be possible to work out in advance how much you will be charged for a sequence of journeys, which currently isn’t doable.
One issue to bear in mind is that a PAYG extension fare will cover both Slade Green to Abbey Wood and Southall to Maidenhead, whereas a paper BZ4 to Maidenhead ticket will only cover that end. It’s possible that I may be able to work out what the extension fare is once I know what the new NR fares will be, but the insistance of the DfT that new fares will not be made public until March 3rd is hampering even basic research.
Watch this space!
Something has clearly gone wrong. Are you being denied travel? I’ll see if I can get some answers, though this may be difficult as it’s a weekend.
I’ve just tried to topup my normal Oyster card. It went through all the stages, including getting an authorisation from the bank, then told me that the card hadn’t been verified so they couldn’t do the topup.
The fares from Hertford North seem to be a bit muddled. The same default fares are charged for travel to Camden Road, Blackfriars NR and East Croydon. It doesn’t seem to matter whether you avoid zone 1 or not, as long as you don’t change to the Underground. It might be worth asking GTR why this is.
Also, even if LO take over the Moorgate services don’t expect fares to change beyond zone 6.
Kt1974: No press release. You ought to query with your bank why their systems are over-sensitive towards TfL transactions.
Adam: Cheshunt fares appear to be frozen. This is probably because GA are compensated for charging TfL fares over that line. Fares for Watford Junction will be increased in line with National policy, as will fares to stations beyond West Drayton and to Shenfield.
I hope the single fare finder does get updated soon, though I fear that the DfT have told TfL not to do so.
Hi Adam,
Sadly the govenment’s (Department for Transport) desire for secrecy has spilled over into TfL this year so that the Mayoral Decision with the new fares did not include the NR single fares as usual. I find this mind-numbingly frustrating. I hope that this is the last year we have to suffer this treatment.
What is known is that virtually all TfL fares are frozen, including the lines out of Liverpool Street. Fares to Brentwood and Shenfield will rise, as well as Watford Junction and west of West Drayton to Reading.
Single fares set at the NR rate and NR-T rate will rise in line with the general regulated increase, but exact details of rounding are not yet known. Outside zones 1-6 I expect that caps will still be aligned with the new travelcard prices. I don’t know for certain yet though.
Hi Roger,
It seems to me absurd that two offpeak journeys are charged as a peak fare on a through ticket.
That is generally how PAYG works. The problem is getting significantly bigger now the area is expanding.
When PAYG arrives, will TfL’s back office system recognise that it is impossible to catch a peak train from Zone 1 if a passenger catches the 1853 at Windsor?
It depends how the peak charging is set up from Windsor. Currently if you travel east from the GWR mainline west of West Drayton (including Windsor & Eton Central) you are charged off-peak all evening no matter how far you go. The detail of how charges will be set up for the Project Oval expansion is not yet being made clear. This is sadly typical of this governments approach to transparency.
Is anything known about delivery of Phase 1 which I take to be PAYG, Phase 2 is presumably provision of concessions.
Phase 1 was due to go live last December but was pulled at the last minute. It’s now supposed to be this Spring, but no date is yet known. Phase 2 will include more extensions, as well as provision for concessions. As with everything, detail is conspicuous by its absence.
Yes, the back office does split OSIs to avoid maximum fares where possible. It won’t split them to get a cheaper fare overall if the complete journey was otherwise valid.
Hi Martin,
I would imagine so, yes. I was somewhat surprised to see this news, then I remembered what was happening in May.
Hi Nick,
The system did change a while back because of GDPR concerns over the forms used in shops being returned to the central office. It’s now not possible to record registration on the card unless it is done when the card is purchased online and sent to you.
I’m fairly certain that the process of adding the card to an account is now the same as registering it, so I wonder if the card was actually registered before. I’m very certain that you can only attach a card to one account, so yes it will be a problem if she’s trying to add it to hers.
I think the best course of action here is to contact the helpdesk and ask them to double check everything. They may need you to be there at the same time if the card has to be uncoupled from your account. I hope they manage to sort it out.
Hi Bryan,
That’s certainly a comprehensive submission. Well done.
I did actually realise after posting that West Hampstead involved a Jubilee train in addition to the Met, although the interchange at Wembley Park involves no more than crossing an island platform so it’s not onerous. All three interchanges (Kilburn/West Hampstead/Finchley Road) are treated identically which is why the JP will sometimes suggest cutting out the Jubilee by using Finchley Road.
My only hesitation would be mentioning the hokey-cokey. Whilst it does work in some cases, it can often have unintended consequences. In this particular case there are no fares defined for Kenton to Harrow-on-the-Hill so I’m not sure what would be charged for that leg. New Malden to Northwick Park defaults to via zone 1. If there is time it might be better just to amble slowly and let the OSI expire after 20 minutes. However, I don’t think that one thing in your otherwise excellent case will make a difference.
Please do update us when you hear back.
Hi JG,
Yes, modern tech often has rules with unintended consequences. The wording of that error message suggests that it has come from the banking system, rather than TfL taking decisions unilaterally. This doesn’t help you though. SCA is secure customer authentication which is applied in cases where the card is not present when processing the transaction.
So, looking at your options:
1) As you’d be using the card in person I’d hope that it should work.
2) TOC smartcards will not handle extension fares. Either they have a travelcard loaded which operates the gates within the appropriate zones, or they have a PAYG facility which is limited to their own services.
3) This would work, but you’d lose the gold card benefits in the interim.I can’t think of any other options right now.
Hi Miles,
Thanks for that link. I’m 99.99% certain that the general times per zone used hasn’t changed since the feature was introduced back in 2010 (IIRC). Initially some values which the formula says should be a multiple of odd minutes were rounded incorrectly, but that was fixed ages ago. The other change was the allowance for journeys in zones 1-4, but this is catered for by using a different multiplier on the journeys involved. There are indeed some specific journeys that have a higher multiplier than the zones crossed would indicate because customers have complained that it wasn’t posssible to make valid on-time journeys without falling foul of the limit.
I also believe that where two or more routes exist for a journey the same multiplier is used based on the most number of zones. Thus Heathrow to Upminster on the District line is always classed as 11 zones, even if zone 1 is avoided. This makes sense in that the avoiding zone 1 route will usually take longer. Also, if the end station is dual zoned I understand that the reverse to fare charging takes place and the extra zone is added in to the multiplier. Thus Hatton Cross to Upminster is still 11 zones. I haven’t had official confirmation of this, but both measures make sense.
I can also understand the TOCs concerns about longer distance journeys. The ‘rules’ suggest that Gatwick to zone 1 ought to be 14 zones which means over 3 hours would be allowed. I’d have no problem with that figure being reduced as it’s clearly nonsensical. If it hasn’t been reduced I can equally understand why it would be deemed desirable to keep the data hidden. There has been no public statement as to how contactless PAYG maximum journey times are calculated, but by their nature this is done in the back-office so there could be a completely different set of rules.
The big problem that I have with the current situation is that when MJTs are exceeded for reasons outside the control of the passenger, they are hit with a financial penalty which then needs to be reversed. Because of this I believe that greater transparency is required.
Hi Matthieu,
Ah yes, I see how that could be confusing. I’ll have a think about how to make that clearer on here.
Travelcard vs caps is a do the maths thing I’m afraid. If you’re travelling before 0930 and going into or via zone 1 then the discounted travelcard is probably better. If you avoid zone 1 and/or only travel after 0930 then it’s unclear which is better.
And Gatwick is the same for railcard fares too. Even the 16-18 zip card isn’t as good if you have a 16-17 Saver card for National Rail, whereas it used to make quite a difference.
Hi Matthieu,
Yes, the railcard discounted Oysters have an off-peak cap which is £5.30 for zones 1-2. This includes all travel after 0930, including the afternoon peak.
Hi Robert,
The two minutes was thought to apply when using validators at a station, but it turns out it’s ok, unless the validator has continuation exit applied (West Drayton doesn’t). If you use the same validator then you need to wait 30 seconds between touches, but if there are two validators you can use a different one to touch back in immediately.
As Alan alluded to, PAYG fares beyond zone 6 are designed as a convenience and to match the paper ticket pricing for anytime and off-peak return tickets. There are some big savings to be made if you step back a train at West Drayton, but the pain is that you have to use the slow trains.
On the main question, Leighton Buzzard to Kensal Green is not valid via Euston because it would undercut the fare to Euston itself.
If you must go via Euston then I agree that an Anytime return LBZ-EUS plus two contactless fares is cheaper than a travelcard from LBZ, especially since contra-peak travel between EUS and KNL is off-peak.
